GAS TYPE????????

As I had mentioned in an earlier post.... Ethanol leaves a film that gums up your carb jets. If you have a choice to not use it, this is what I would choose. Well, unless you like pulling your carb rack and cleaning them every year.

 

The Norton runs much smoother on premium, but that motor wants higher octane to begin with.

The XJ seems to prefer midgrade to regular; I think it's because all the companies tend to "skimp" on whatever goes into regular.

 

Side Note:

What ever type gas you decide to use when you sync and tune your bike I believe you should stay with that level of octane.

 

Quite agree, the octane rating is too high for our ignition system to ignite easily.

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree here amigo.
Not all aviation engines use 2 spark plugs nor is the fuel formulated to control the flame front. Flame propagation is controled by valve geometry, intake geometry, pocket geometry (the shape of the chamber), piston geometry, spark timing and charge dispersal. Granted that the fuel formulation will determine flame propagation speed to some degree but it is not capable of controling the direction the flame front travels.

 

Although I agree with using the lowest octane for the job my 550 XJ maxium does ping with 87 this may be due to driving style or the local hills bottom line for me use the lowest octane that does not ping in your bike then tune with that fuel in so not to cause problems later. P.S. By driving style I mean that I shift up to the highest gear as quick as possible for the best mileage and lowest rpm.
I'd like to know why you think ethanol will damage our carburetors. That's not typically one of the problems associated with the fuel. I'm not a big fan of corn ethanol (give me the Brazilian sugar-beet stuff, however, and things change) but I've never heard that one. Quote
The ways it can damage is due to the tendency to carry water that would normally separate from gas so instead of a clear water problem it can set in you float bowls and collect more water and corrosion than gas alone.
I only speak in this in facts not my personal opinion.

 

Okay, last time.... Again.....
As I had mentioned in an earlier post.... Ethanol leaves a film that gums up your carbs jets. If you have a choice to not use it, this is what I would choose. Well, unless you like pulling your carb rack and cleaning them every year.
Every biker I know that lives around here knows this. Ethanol is crap plain and simple. You have this great forum though so when you have to take apart your carbs for cleaning people will be here to help you. Personally, I won't put the crap in my bike because I know better.

 

Ok, I was rather suspicious of the idea that ethanol itself was causing clogged carburetors....so I did some research:

http://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.html

It seems an important distinction that the ethanol doesn't leave a film... but yes, the breakdown of SOME rubber parts MAY cause problems in SOME bikes. I'd have to refer to Rick, Fitz, or Chacal to determine how to E10 proof our bikes, if necessary. But it doesn't seem anymore reasonable to blame messed up valves on unleaded fuel than it does clogged jets on ethanol. It's the future, overall it's better, we'll just have to adapt. I would agree that the dangers should be better advertised. You can blame the corn farmers for that one.

As far as the water issue is concerned, unless you are leaving your cap off or taking your bike for a swim, ethanol is actually GOOD for your system. Hydrocarbons (gas) don't mix with water at all, but ethanol will mix with water, hold it in suspension, and pass through the fuel system and come out the exhaust. That's how HEET works, btw. So if you treat it right, there isn't really a problem with having a little bit of water in your gas, if you are using E10 and up.

Of course, as the article says, if you leave your tank exposed to 70% humidity air for 3 months at a time...you might want to replace that fuel...hydrocarbon or ethanol.

I come from Missouri and we've had E10 for a long time...I liked it just fine. I'd trade it any day for the expensive stuff we have in California!

 

Not sure how you can say doesn't leave a film.... According to the article found on the link that you sent..... I don't think you read down for enough.... What do you think they meant by .... "the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems" It must leave something behind if it can clog a fuel system. Right?
Here is a copy of that article for everyone to read. It tells me that Ethanol is indeed crap!.....

Boaters are now faced with a new problem - ethanol fuel. For years, gasoline contained MTBE, an additive which controls the fuel's octane properties. The additive is being phased out, and now much of the nation's fuel supply is a blend of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, commonly referred to as E-10 fuel.

Ethanol presents several problems to boaters. The immediate impact of the formulation is a loss of horsepower and fuel economy. Early indications show drops of 3-5 % in of both categories. The loss of range sounds small, but adds up on boats that are often already stretched to the limit in terms of fuel needs. Additionally, ethanol is a very effective solvent, and has a tendency to dissolve old coatings of varnish and dirt in existing fuel systems. This can lead to plugged fuel filters, and other mechanical problems.

The added amounts of particles associated with ethanol fuel may warrant upgrading filter systems. Many engineers are now recommending that boats using ethanol fuel need to use 10 micron filters. Pre-E-10 systems will likely be using 28 micron filters. Manufacturers such as Yamaha have been quick to respond to ethanol fuel use by introducing replacement 10 micron filters.

The corrosive nature of ethanol can affect fuel lines and other components, causing them to crack and fail. Many older boats will require replacement of all fuel hoses and possibly other system components. Especially affected are boats equipped with fiberglass tanks. Many older vessels must have the fiberglass tanks replaced prior to using E-10 fuels, or face certain engine failures.

Water in E-10 fuel is another problem that boaters must deal with. The introduction of water on E-10 fuel can be disasterous. E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity.

While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.

Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

 

Sorry, but no. You can throw a rag in a toilet and clog it (as long as it's not Kohler, apparently), that doesn't mean your poop is leaving something behind that clogs it. A "phase separation slurry", where there is so much water in the tank that the water settles out of the gas, but can still be dissolved into the ethanol, is like the rag in that it's not normally there, the E10 is like...well, your normal daily operations.

The phase separated E10 is not good. But neither is water in your gasoline, except it takes LESS water to mess up gasoline. Boats have a unique issue with this. Not only are they marine, but renew their fuel less often and have different tanks. Think about it. When was the last time you left a full tank of gas sitting open at 70% humidity for 3 months? This might be a real problem for a boat, but not for a motorcycle. Plus, gumming can happen with any fuel if left for a long period of time. Furthermore, E10 will actually carry small amounts of water out of your system, which gas simply cannot do. It's like adding a bottle of HEET to every tank. Hereis a technical article straight from the EPA about this very issue. The conclusion is to not put liquid water directly into your tank, and to use a stabilizer if you are going to store it for a long period of time.

It's also not a problem INHERENT with E10 fuel. It's a problem with E10 fuel PLUS a unique environment PLUS bad maintenance habits. And this is my main point.

Besides, it seems to me we have two options.

1. Adjust and ride.
2. Park and hitchhike.

We aren't going back to 100% hydrocarbon based fuel anytime soon, and for good reason.

I still do think that we should confirm compatibility with the fuel lines, float needles, and petcocks. Chacal might need to give a precaution or find a new supplier!

 

Well, I guess you can be the test subject for Ethanol. I am not going to be. Where I come from a clog is a clog know matter if a rag caused it or poop. I know about 20 bikers in town and we all know that Ethanol is not good for your bikes. Hey, I am just trying to help others out by letting them know what I know about this junk. I want to keep my fuel system as clean as possible so I am going to stay away from it.
Bottom Line....
Okay lets see here according to the article that you wanted us to read....
1. The immediate impact of the formulation is a loss of horsepower and fuel economy.
2. The added amounts of particles associated with ethanol fuel may warrant upgrading filter systems.
3. The corrosive nature of ethanol can affect fuel lines and other components, causing them to crack and fail.
4. The introduction of water on E-10 fuel can be disastrous. E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon.
5. While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage.
6. Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if unused for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

If these things aren't enough to warrant a concern then I don't know what would be! My advise, if you can avoid using Ethanol, do.

 

You forgot the most important one...

7. We no longer spend billions of dollars sending young men and women to foreign countries with oppressive, dictatorial regimes to fight and die for access to oil, while running up tremendous trade imbalances that hurts our economy, and financing human rights abuses.

My advise, if you can find a way to use ethanol, do.

I can deal with 1-6 with a change in habits and a few new cheap parts.

How do you live with 7?

 

it takes more fossil fuel to grow, transport and process ethanol than you replace by using it. Try another line. I'd like to bring 'em home too but changes in energy policy do not effect results in foreign policy.

 

Corn ethanol, maybe (it's still under debate).

But the Brazilians have been doing it for decades using a different process. It's possible. And cellulistic ethanol is even better than sugarbeet ethanol.

And when you go to Bahrain to protect the Straight of Hormuz from being mined in an effort to disrupt oil traffic to the United States, then come back and tell me energy policy doesn't affect foreign policy.

Just remember when it happens that it's me in the bottom of the ship going through a minefield.

 

I don't understand how you get that...but ok.

Hopefully others that read this thread will know more facts about the use of ethanol in fuel, it's immediate effects on their vehicle, and the far reaching effects on the environment, economy, and foreign policy.

Then they can make an educated decision to use E10 or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

 

I guess I'll weigh in.
OBD, you are correct that issues have arisen since the introduction of ethanol into our fuel supplies and the chaos that followed.
But you are confusing the symptoms of the issue with the cause. Ethanol itself does NOT create clogs, it is a solvent and the resultant breakdown of incompatable materials and varnishes WILL. Splitting hairs but an important distiction. Additionally, if you ever get the chance to veiw the internals of a alcohol injected top fuel engine, you will be amazed by how clean the combustion chamber and ports are. Amazing stuff.
I'll give props to Day7, your efforts to educate are gratifying. My cousin works in the Brazilian fuel industry and they have indeed been making alcohol for many years (pugas, the fermented leftovers of cane processing, a HUGE industry down there). Their experiences with alcohol leave me avoiding purchase of an alcohol fueled car down there. It does have less energy density and the resulting additional polution is painful on the eyes and lungs. They reduced their dependence upon foreign import at the expense of air quality and poorly performing cars. The water content tends to freeze (imagine that in Brazil!) necessitating a shot of regular gasoline to get the car running and the alcohol warmed up.
I ran E85 in my government truck for 2 years and, while it got terrible economy, I didn't have problems with it. Of course the truck was built with this fuel in mind so it does make a difference in comparison but it makes the point that alcohol can be used reliably with appropriate design and parts.
As for saving my brothers-in-arms from further harm, check out the company I work for. www.coolplanetbiofuels.com

 

This from a AMA article..."Motorcycle manufacturers only certify their machines to run on gasoline or a blend with up to 10 percent ethanol, which is known as E10," Szauter said. "So using the 15 percent blend in a motorcycle could void the bike's warranty." http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2/8218/Mo ... ycles.aspx

And another from Aviation News... When ethanol first came on the scene, we started to test it in the lab. The fuels with ethanol cleaned out our fuel systems and caused a number of leaks. Most people think that when a fuel line is made of neoprene or Buna-N rubber that the name completely defines what that rubber is. What they do not know is that there are a number of different compounds of each of these products. When we ran hardness and swell tests on a number of different compounds of the more common rubber types, we found that ethanol affected them differently. For example, we found that some neoprene rubber hoses worked well with ethanol-containing fuels, but others would harden or swell a great deal. This means if a person drove a car or flew a plane with ethanol-containing fuel and did not have any problems, it only means that the rubber components in that particular vehicle were OK. It does not in any way, shape, or form prove that ethanol will work on all rubber fuel components. Likewise, there are a lot of different aluminum alloys — many that work with ethanol, but there are some ethanol will corrode.

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2010 ... al-danger/

 

It is actually against federal law to put anything above E10 in a motorcycle, car older than 2007, or any number of other vehicles. It's due to the emissions though, not the health of the equipment.

It's all right here: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/

It's interesting to note, and Robert mentioned something similar, that California doesn't have E10 because of the smog concerns. Apparently Cali only has E5, which is only enough to act as an octane booster in place of MTBE. I found this in another interesting article here. This makes me wonder if there is ANY gas without some EtOH in it as an octane booster. ?? In Missouri we had two octane levels and 3 grades. The cheapest was E10, which had the same octane as mid, and then the higher octane was the most expensive. I always got the E10. I didn't get any worse mileage in my car than running the stuff from the Navy Exchange pumps...

Like PGDBUD said, the only way to know if you have problems or not is to run it. I think we would have heard more on this site if E10 caused significant problems with our XJ's. Most of us have newer fuel lines and parts anyways. And with the prevalence of E10 in the past few years, it's pretty difficult to not put it in your bike.

Robert, you'll be happy to know that a lot of those problems with early alcohol autos are being engineered out pretty easily. If you can get a reliable source of E100, you can run a very high compression ratio. Of course I don't have to tell you that you can make a alcohol injected engine go very, very fast!

I believe most of the problems associated with ethanol are mostly transitional. That is, the problems arise because we are trying part gas and part EtOH. If we were to do the impossible and instantly switch over I don't think there would be any issues, but that is in fact impossible, so we have to deal with the transition which, like it or not, seems inevitable. If only Henry Ford had his way! Who would have thought 20th century social policy (Prohibition) would be causing havoc with 21st century energy policy!

But remember, for maximum horsepower and nearly unlimited mileage, run a nuclear reactor under your crotch!

 

You are a very smart man.

However, the easiest way to solve the numero 7 up there is to drill here domestically. We have tons of oil. Let's use it.

I too would like to see the Saudi's take a dive off the cliff. But using ethanol will only marginally affect them. Truthfully, the majority or our oil comes from Canada and South America (notably, Venezuela).

We could solve a ton of domestic issues by simply allowing companies to research, explore, drill and refine the oil we have here.

Congruently, I am absolutely for more wind, more solar and more biofuel power. But not in the zero-sum game that the liberals promote. It makes no sense.

When there is an economically viable (read, there is money to be made) alternative (that doesn't involve tremendous government subsidies), then the market will switch to it. Plain and simple.

Until then, I want my oil, coal and nuclear power.

As far as the XJ goes, if you run enough gas through it...I doubt ethanol is going to harm the bike. So get out there and ride!

 

I have some used pinball machine parts for trade if you would be interested!

 

Coming in on the tail of this discussion, but from personal experience the ethanol E-10 or E-15 who knows? This fuel wreaks havoc on the V6 two stroke outboards. It attracts water and it seems as though it will not uniformly blend with oil, even in oil injected situations. I fried one, diagnosis was ethanol/bad fuel. Also my personal vehicle will run the E-85 blend, but as Robert stated my MPG's went down 3-4 mpgs. Just my two cents worth.