How to convert to LED's and still have everything work

on my maxim 550 I used an led for the signal indicator from superbright it was bidirectional
if you use a bi directonal led bulb you do not have to add diodes.
this should work for most single indicator dashes

Part Number: WLED-W-120 cool white 120 degree $0.99
7500 K 5 lm 1600 mcd 12 mA .2 watts

bright enough for day or night
not bright enough for daytime use of highbeam indicator
they are on discount so I think they are being phased out

 

So I understand that to get the auto cancel functionality, you need an spdt relay as well as a two prong.

I'm going to do without, because I just want to get my signals flashing so I can take my full license test and ride without a supervisor... Legally.

So I got an led flasher from grote, for a pricey $26, and plugged it in, hoping for the best. Nothing. Obviously i was optimistic, but I was going with the trial and error method because internet is down at my house. Today it's raining, so let's do this!

There are some simple, cheap five-prong relays at Canadian tire, but I wouldn't know where to plug which wire, so I'm going to give up on the auto cancel for now.
The two prong relay I bought gas a load and an input prong, as well as a ground, as you can see in the picture. I'm guessing the Br/W and the Br wires are the ones I want to connect to, skipping out the connection to the cancelling unit. I simply don't know which, the brown or other, gets the load prong. I'll be switching them today to try then out, otherwise I'll have to find a set of bulbs, and I want to take my test soon so I can ride. Figuring out the LEDs I already have is the quickest option at this point. They've already been wired and soldered in, and I did a pretty good job of if, if I may say so.

Please help, gents. Thank you, ride well.

 

Br wire goes to input (it is the wire to fuse)
the Br/w wire goes to load

hook up the ground and your good


http://www.grote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/01-4489-12_D_Web-Image.pdf

 

Thank you, you wizard.

Okay, granted, all that kept me from finding this was lack of a wifi connection, but now i am at a cafe.

That diagram, from what I can tell, is simply a breakdown of the internals of the flasher. I'll keep y'all posted.

 

I know this is an old thread, but it's so comprehensive and useful.

I want to do the same thing to my Turbo, replacing all the dash lights, extra gauges, tail lights, license plate light and turn signals to LED to reduce the current on the system and add in a phone charger.
Does anyone know if the tail light testing circuit in the computer works the same as the 750 seca? What lumen bulb is sufficient for the turn signals/tail light/dash? (I'm thinking 200-300 lumens for the tail light and turn signals, 30 for the dash. I'm going with the superbrightleds.com and there are a lot of options.

Does anyone have access to the images?

 

I suspect that it is different and similar to the 82 Maxim where it employs reed switches for the headlight, brake light, and tail light instead of the current sense resistors used on the Seca tail and brake circuit. And, as a side note, the limited testing that I did on the Seca CMS using diodes will allow running with LED or incandescent bulbs, but it also defeats the monitoring system so when bulbs burn out or filaments open a fault will not be detected.

I was considering trying a few, and as you mentioned there are a lot of options. One option is to go with Len as he has tested bulbs for the indicators and turn signals, but I don't think he offers the tail / brake light bulb. I wouldn't want to add tape as SQLGuy mentioned in page one of the post to the indicator bulbs, but I suspect it was the easiest option at the time. I believe he chose color matched bulbs to the lenses, which is usually recommended, but the consequences can be that it is way too bright.

The standard tail / brake 1157 bulb is 38 / 402 lumens, respectively. Did you choose these numbers based on research? Were you planning on using 1157R (red) bulbs to match the lens color for the tail / brake? Same would apply to the 1156 turn signals (402 lumens) and are bulbs being chosen to match lens color?

 

Your suspicions are correct, the Turbo Seca does employ reed switches for both the headlight and brake/tail light circuit. I saw some talk of magnets, and the reed switches are just on the edge of the gauges so I'm going to experiment with neodymium magnets to see if I can trip it, before deciding to jump it.

I picked cool white 30 lumen 5 led bulbs for the dash lighting and both 5 and 23 lumen for the indicators. I'll report what works for me.

I did some research on the turn and tail bulbs and found the same numbers. I was planning on using color matched bulbs but the white ones were rated at 80/290 for the tail, and 325 for the turn signals. I'm also thinking of adding another light to the top box as my luggage rack covers the tail light somewhat.

 

Preliminary tests look promising. I scraped a bit of epoxy off of the leads of the reed switch (high,low,brake) and was able to trip it from about 10-11mm away on the axis with one small neodymium ring magnet.

This looks adequate to basically glue one magnet outside the gauge cluster. Not sure it I can get the distance just right to receive a bulb out if the LED fails, but I figure it'll be good enough if it works. Now just waiting for the LEDs!

 

That sounds a bit magical to get the magnet placed just right so that the flux from the added magnet combined with the reed current magnetic flux would be workable. I suspect you would just have to disable the circuits with a permanently closed relay. And, if it could be done the tail circuit would work as it is in a always on state with USA bikes. However, the brake circuit would have to be modified to negate the filament check or the "TAIL" warning would be set whenever the brake lights are not illuminated.

It that one magnet per reed, or is the one magnet disabling all 4 reed switches?

I suspect there are other options that could keep the CMS bulb current function BIT, but they would either require some modification to the CCA or the willingness to use some load resistors. Since the brake trip point is 1 amp, and the tail is .5 amp, much smaller load resistors can be used when there is no need to match the wattage of the original bulbs.

 

One magnet per reed. A magical distance indeed, and I'm sure the process of gluing it and vibration etc would not make it possible. Maybe offsetting it slightly might get give me more leeway positioning the magnet just outside the reed's pull in lobe. I suspect alignment will be key too, one way will add and the other will subtract the induced magnetic field from the coil

Does the computer specifically check if the brake light is illuminated but the brake switch isn't activated? I'd have to look more closely at the wiring diagram to see if the switch is a separate input. I really don't want to add resistors, unless in the form of more brake lights

I didn't know the trip points were 1 and .5 amps. Thanks for that info!

 

I am making a bit of an assumption here, but I am fairly certain the brake and tail circuits will operate just like the head light circuit that also uses the reed relays. The internal CMS circuitry (output side) will set a fail when not illuminated unless there is a filament present to apply a ground. Since the LED bulbs do not apply a ground, then the filament check must be disabled. The good part of that is it takes very little wattage to disable the filament check. When the brake is applied, and 12V is routed to the CMS (input side), then the CMS relies on the reed relay to set a safe condition. As mentioned before the tail circuit is always on with USA bikes, so the filament check is not really used or needed.

Yea it looks like it is fairly proportional with the chosen reed switch. One coil winding is about 1 amp, two layers is about .5 amps. I suspect the linearity of that might fall off a bit if more layers were added, but not for sure on that.

 

OK I'm unclear on how the CMS work exactly or why LED doesn't "apply a ground." I was assuming (with no actual reference) that when the computer sees 12 V on the brake or tail light, it'd expect to see 12 V on the output of the reed switch, and if not then throw a fault. But now that you mention it, I couldn't see any circuit connected to the output of the reed switch for the tail light (small coil) so I guess that doesn't make sense.

How exactly does the CMS work then to check the tail and brake filaments? Are the reed switches only used to tell the CMS when to check a circuit?

 

I don't have a diagram for the tail and brake, but using the head light reed relay logic you can get a good mental picture of what is going on. You can basically split this one in half, with the top being the tail and bottom brake, or vise versa, and also eliminating the indicator bulb. The logic would be either the reed relay switch is closed controlling the state of a transistor, or the filament pulling the same point to ground to control the transistor. Resistor values and configuration would change so instead of the balanced circuit below that requires two points to go low, the node A or node B pulled low would be sufficient to turn the transistor off. So, this either or is disrupted when an LED bulb is installed as there is no path to ground for the condition of filament check; brake light not illuminated.

Sidebar - I don't currently have a Turbo CMS, and it is possible that the configuration is different. Note the Seca $685, Maxim $382, and Turbo $267 indicates simplified circuitry, and possibly function. That said, the presence of the filament check can be noted by the existence of a non-illuminated voltage at the respective pins. For example on the Seca with the head light H4 socket removed and no head light supply voltage, you will measure approximately 4.4V at the high and low terminals. Likewise, on the Maxim tail and brake terminals with no supply voltage, a voltage of approximately 3.8V appears.

So here is how the head light warning works in the Seca CMS using the reed relays. The tail and brake circuit I suspect are similar on CMS assemblies that use the reed relays for the tail/brake BIT functions. Similarly, the head light circuit for the Maxim and Turbo CMS likely operate on the same design as the Seca below.

Note: This was originally evaluated back in March regarding the subject of installing an LED H4 head light. I had suspected the filament check could be disabled with 1K resistors, but I had neglected to note how the High Beam indicator bulb was wired utilizing the low beam filament as a source for ground. Subsequently, to disable the low beam filament check using the 1K resistor, the high beam bulb must be re-wired to move one side to ground and the other side to the H4 high beam terminal. With the High Beam indicator bulb (incandescent) re-wired as stated it disables the high beam filament check and requires only one resistor on the low beam leg to disable the low beam filament check. Subsequently, the LED bulb must also draw enough current on the illuminated side to activate the reed relay, which to my testing to date is just above 1 amp for both the high and low beam reed relay.

So a brief description of how the circuit works, UK bikes excluded for simplicity.

Q1 must be turned off to go high and indicate a safe condition.

Low beam illuminated:

Low beam illuminated reed relay closes switch S1 and grounds node "A" reducing base current to Q1
High beam filament grounds node "B" through D2 - Q1 turns off indicating a safe condition.

High beam illuminated:
High beam illuminated reed relay closes S2 and grounds node "B" reducing base current to Q1
Low beam filament grounds node "A" through D1 - Q1 turns off indicating a safe condition

So, it is important to note it always takes two to create a safe condition. The LED bulb electrical characteristics will defeat the filament check and consequently requires a load resistor (1K or so) for the non-illuminated low beam side as well as a reconfiguration of the high beam indicator bulb wiring.

Ground though two reeds would also work, but not a normal condition and jumping the reed switches will disable the CMS headlight monitoring for all conditions.

 

Does anyone know how to get the Turbo Seca computer to run through it's checks without having the motorcycle running? I assume that the white wires from the alternator that go to the diode are involved? I'd like to play around with magnets tripping reed switches without having the bike running at the same time.

BTW, for the Turbo Seca, I had to stack two of the magnets to trip the switch from outside the gauges but it was possible. As Rooster53 mentions this is *just* disabling, not getting it to work. What's also nice is that there is a metal bracket right behind the tail light reed switch. It was annoying at first because the magnets would pull off the velcro, but with a steel shim in there I'm confident the magnet wouldn't move.

 

The white wire has to go to 12V on the CMS 9 pin connector, very easy on the Maxim and Seca through the AC Generator main harness mating connector, but the Turbo is quite different.

You could try this, hopefully the wiring diagram can be trusted for accuracy.

Remove the starter cutoff relay or unplug the starter solenoid so the starter will not engage
Or, put the bike in gear with the side stand down to disable the starter circuit
Push the start button (key and kill switch on)
The fuel pump relay should close and the fuel pump should run, hold the start button for approximately 3 seconds and the CMS should initiate a check sequence.
You will have to hold the start button as once you let go the CMS goes back to standby mode.

If that doesn't work you could temporarily remove the white wire on the CMS 9 pin connector. With the key on, kill switch on and 12V applied to the white wire the CMS will stay in check mode.

 

Excellent Rooster53, you were exactly right. I ended up disconnecting the fuel pump, the putting it in 1st with the kickstand down, and holding on the start button. This usually only spins the fuel pump, but I never noticed the computer going through it's checks after 3 seconds.

I also realized that grounding the extra connector off the fuel pump relay could do the same thing! (Not on the diagram). I knew it primed the fuel pump by triggering the fuel pump relay, but didn't realize it ran through all the tests without activating the starting or safety circuits.

As for the LED taillight, the magnet worked perfectly to disable the test. It only took one with a 1/4 inch metal shim, placed between the reed switch outside of the gauge because the gauge has a steel mounting bracket that kept attracting the velcroed magnet. The shim also strengthens the magnetic field from the one magnet. Testing without the shim required two magnets in two stacks, stacked side-to-side over the switches.

The 5 lumen LED looks good for the indicators and I used the 20-30 lumens ones for the back lighting. I went with a bluer white, unfortunately it looks cool everywhere except the speedo and tach because their paint is a little yellow white.

 

Well I do have one interesting consequence from converting the dash to LED. When I pull the clutch in to shift gears (when the bike is running), my Neutral light blinks once rapidly both when I grab and release the clutch. I'm guessing this has something to do with the engine cutoff relay that is looking for either clutch or neutral, and it must ground the line ever so quickly. I think the filament in the old bulb would take time to come on, so it wasn't noticeable, but with the LED it's really clear (and a little annoying).

What do you think I should do? Put the old bulb back in just for the neutral light? Wire something in that takes time to build up voltage at the LED? Ignore it?

 

It really should happen only when the clutch switch opens, but it is not that unusual for switches to have a bit of bounce, so it could occur both ways. What is causing it is the collapsing field in the starter cutoff relay coil that produces a large voltage spike. It is enough power to momentarily illuminate an LED but would be insufficient to light the incandescent bulb.

The easiest solution would be to use a directional LED - hopefully they can tolerate the short burst of voltage (approximately 1 msec at 300 volts) from the collapsing field in the starter cutoff relay, or just change back to the incandescent bulb.

Edit: The directional LED eliminates dampening of the collapsing field from the starter cutoff relay applying that voltage to the diode block diode. Not likely a problem, but reverse rating on the diodes can not be determined as the diodes utilized by Yamaha can not be identified because of lack of markings.

 

Rooster53 you must be an electrical engineer! I thought all LEDs only flowed in one direction, I wonder how they make the bulbs work. Where am I going to find a directional LED...

 

Directional LED's were quite common, and used to be all that were available. I think now they are getting harder to find. To create a bi-directional (non-polarized) LED a full wave bridge rectifier is used that actually adds to the cost and complexity of the device. The higher power LED's get even more complicated, utilizing constant current sources and adding even more to the number of components and complexity of the devices. The advent of the bi-directional LED simplified the installation and allowed them to work without having to consider the polarity of the circuit design.

The only instrument cluster LED I have in house right now is from Walmart. It is made by Sylvania (marked for off road use only), but it is a directional LED so it must be installed observing the correct polarity. It is also impossible to find any detailed specifications for it. I did a quick check at Superbright LED's, and the directional LED's appear to be getting scarce. I did find this one, but don't really know if it would be suitable for brightness. It's almost like you just have to try them, and the choices of beam angle, color, and lumens are all going to affect the perceived brightness. Given what you chose as acceptable, I suspect this may be too bright.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...e-wedge-retrofit-rvb/2493/#tab/Specifications

There are a couple of other options, but I did not mention them because they require modifications to either the existing harness or the starter cutoff relay.

1. Make the bi-directional LED directional with a series diode
2. Add a suppression diode to the starter cutoff relay

Edit: Option 2 making the LED directional eliminates dampening of the collapsing field from the starter cutoff relay applying that voltage to the diode block diode. Not likely a problem, but reverse rating on the diodes can not be determined as the diodes utilized by Yamaha can not be identified because of lack of markings.

Edit: Option 1 will work. However, Yamaha did a nice job of designing this circuit such that shorted components will not cause damage. If the suppression diode were to short, a blown ignition fuse would result.