Simmy's Naked Turbo Project

Also be aware that there are 2 different versions of Berryman's; seemingly like everything else in the modern world, there's the original "good" stuff (deemed too dangerous for mere mortals) and the modern, water-downed "safe" version that does a piss-poor job, but it saves the whales, etc. You might want to contact Berryman's to know how to recognize the "old from the new". The "old" formula is the good stuff.

https://www.berrymanproducts.com/products/cleaning-degreasing

 

The new stuff is the only formula that can be sold in California, but it still does a good job. It just takes an extra dip sometimes.

 

Autozone are no where near me. I see the Amazon.ca price, no way I'm paying that.
I saw a video of a guy in the US saying he bought the Berryman's at Walmart for $17.
I'm going to stew it in Pinesol for an hour, blow it and spray it with carb cleaner, then repeat.
Maybe blast it myself with baking soda afterwards. Its just one carb so I can hand polish the exterior if I have to.

 

I stripped #1 carb body yesterday and stewed it 30 minutes in my ultrasound tank at 50C, 50/50 Pine-sol & water.
I blew it out, sprayed carb cleaner through every passage, then repeated this process 2 more times.
Unfortunately even Pine-sol made the aluminum black.
I tried blasting it with baking soda but wasn't getting a good result so I took it to the bike shop with vapour blasting.
$20 cash and 15 minutes later it was looking all new and sparkly again.
I put the rack back together and they're back on the bike.
I learned something remounting the carbs.
First I applied the smallest amount of grease on the rubber manifolds and stabbed #4 as far as it would go.
It was obviously not completely seated because the other 3 were still not home but it was already in past the groove.
I tightened #4 clamp anyway then pushed hard on #1. They all popped in.
I undid #4 again, made sure it was squared up then tightened them all.
I had them installed in under 2 minutes.
I'm a carb mounting hero! In my own mind anyway, LOL.
Hoping to get more time this weekend to remount the fuel pump, surge tank, air filter and battery box and continue with the tuning.

 

Jukebox hero popped in my head immediately, and I can't get rid of it now.

 

I got all 4 firing, settled on 2-3/4 turns out on the mixture screws and an even synch across the bank.
I took it out for another spin around the neighborhood. After the first spin around the block it was running real good but the idle settled a little high, this is to be expected.
I took a few more laps then it started stumbling like it was low on fuel, which it was.
I put some fresh gas in but the running condition did not improve. Taking a break from this thing for now.

 

It's good to take a break from this project. If you are like me the answer to the problem will come to you in the middle of the night and wake you from a dead sleep. I know you won't give up.

 

I assume you're using the pressurized fuel system from the Turbo Seca. I had a problem with mine that took a while to trace where the check valve o-ring got stuck or glued to the seat. Fuel could still slip through, so if the fuel pump ran long enough or it sat for a while, the carb bowls could fill with fuel eventually. That that would make it run well for a little while, but as soon as you took it up to highway speeds and were consuming fuel at a good clip, it would stumble, sputter, and eventually lean out and run on only 1 or 2 cylinders (likely which ever would fill first through the fuel rail.

To test this, drain a carb bowl (you can try all of them to rule out a float valve). Then do a "wet set" float height measurement. You're not trying to get this exact (I had better luck setting up the carbs on a stand with the whole fuel system connected for that) but to make sure that 1. your carbs are actually filling but not overfilling and flooding the engine, and 2. that they fill "quickly." If they seem at all sluggish to refill, I would suspect part of the fuel system.

In order to fill your carbs, you need to run the fuel pump. On the Turbo harness, this can be done one of two ways, either ground the "test plug" which came out of the left hand fairing on the stock Turbo seca and was a female bullet connector. The other way, if you have the safety circuit installed, is to put the bike in first gear, kick-stand down, ignition on, and try to start it. You'll hear the fuel pump run, but the engine won't turn over. The only downside is that power is removed from the dash, which is where my fuel pressure gauge was installed.

I had installed a Glow Shift fuel pressure sensor and gauge, it was the cheapest at a little over $100. With that, I could verify that the fuel system had pressure when running. This led me to the check valve (eventually). Like you've discovered, the intake books on the Turbo are more stiff than the naturally aspirated ones, so removing and reinstalling the carbs is a pain (and I'm sure I had done it dozens of times on my turbo, using the "clamp one end" technique you described). A couple of months ago I did discover that you can access the check valve without removing the carbs if you have good pliers for removing the hose clamps. You'll have to remove it to disassemble, as the screw heads face downwards.

 

Thanks @ManBot13 your input and experience is great to read.
Lots to unpack in what you’ve wrote.
The only mechanical changes I’ve made is the upgraded fuel pump, boost controller and elimination of the bank angle sensor.

Everything else has been cosmetic.
I rebuilt the fuel check valve with new o-ring but it could be sticking. Anytime I’ve been above 5000 rpm it does run really strong but I haven’t had it on the highway for any extended running up there.
The check valve is easily accessible, not too difficult to inspect.
Anytime I’ve drained the carbs they were full.
I’m not aware of the test plug you mentioned on the left side of the bike.
There’s a female bullet connector at the TCI I’ve not understood it’s purpose.

 

I took the check valve apart today and everything looked just as it had when I last assembled it.
I'm focusing now on the fuel pressure regulator. I think it could be stuck open.
If that is the case it won't build enough pressure to open the check valve and all fuel will return to the tank.
The check valve needs 2.8 psi fuel pressure to open.

 

I'm going to order a fuel pressure gauge and tee this into the system to see what's going on.
Even if I resort to installing an aftermarket FPR I'll need the gauge to adjust it anyway.

That is a nice tip and should save wear'n tear on my starter motor.
It's not getting fuel, I'm convinced of that now.
The only time it fires now is when it sits for a length of time but then just fires briefly.
I suppose I could remove the internals from the check valve to see if it runs.
I need a gauge.

 

I bought a cheap pressure testing kit for fuel injection systems.
Unfortunately the gauge reads 0-100 psi, I had my doubts of its accuracy trying to read 2.8 psi which is the pressure needed to trigger the check valve.
I used @ManBot13 trick of putting the bike in gear with the sidestand down to activate just the fuel pump without the starter motor, worked like a charm.
With just the pump running it would just bump the needle on the gauge when starting but then read zero. Same result with the motor running.
I'm going to replace the gauge with one reading 0-30 psi to get a more accurate reading of this.
I plugged the fuel return line after the regulator just to see what the new pump will do.
As the pic verifies this pump is good for 22 psi so this was a good choice.

 

I know you mentioned not wanting more gauges, but if you change your mind, this is what I have (and it's gone down in price, $85) Glowshift. I used some brass fittings, a 3-way pipe threaded "T" with two barbed ends and threaded the gauge to the third opening. You need fuel resistant thread sealant as well. The only downside is that the gauge is not very bright, but you can change it's colors! It works really well if it's next to a boost gauge with the same range (0-30psi).

 

Yes once I have this dialed in I plan to remove the boost gauge (& fuel) anyway, blurred scenery is the best indication it's working correctly.
I looked at the Glowshift stuff last night. If I still had that barge of a fairing I'd love to run all these gauges.
@ManBot13 when you ran the pump what pressure did you see? Also at engine idle what did your fuel pressure read?
I ordered a 0-15 psi gauge last night so I should see exactly what I'm getting. Should it read 2.8 psi or will it be something less?
Currently the 0-100 needle just blips when I activate the pump but still rests at zero with the pump running.
I suspect the regulator is not holding any pressure.

 

So I never actually saw the fuel pressure when running the pump alone, since there's a diode that cuts power to the headlight and dash when turning over the engine. That causes the gauge to reset since it's electronic. That's why I mentioned the above "downside."

I can say, that while the engine is running, the fuel gauge would show 2psi (at idle/no boost). Sometimes a little higher, but always between 2-3 psi until boost kicked on. I had it connected to the fuel line from the check valve to the pressure regulator. I'm not quite sure where it's connected in your setup, but you want it to sense the fuel pressure that the check valve sees. I don't think the check valve actually actuates at 2.8psi, I think it opens earlier than that, and that the float valves can contribute to the "back pressure" that opens the fuel pressure regulator.

Also, note that if you forget to open the fuel valve, the fuel pressure would drop to zero before the engine dies.

 

I have the fuel gauge teed in between the pump and the check valve but it shouldn't make any difference if its between the check valve and the regulator.
The regulator should keep everything under pressure back to the pump outlet. The check valve is teed so passes fluid through anyway, pressure will be the same on either side of it.
As stated my current gauge is too wide of scale but its reading 0 with the engine running. The bike will be starving for fuel if that is the case and symptoms seem to support that.
I'll be waiting a week or 2 for the 0-15 psi gauge to arrive. If it does not read at least 2 psi I'll be replacing the regulator.
I've attached the schematic if there is anyone else interested in following this conversation.

 

I agree with your setup just though it would be prudent to ask. You’re likely on the right track with the regulator.

I was always worried what might happen if that regulator failed. What aftermarket regulator would you get?

 

this one
https://www.holley.com/products/fue...regulators/carbureted_regulators/parts/12-887

I read on the turbo forum another guy used it. Its adjustable between 4.5-9 psi but the poster said he was able to adjust it down to the 3 psi range needed.
I did my own research, called up the listing on Summit Racing, plugged in the criteria and this was the cheapest one checking all the boxes.
Another one appears to be the same thing only chrome.
https://www.holley.com/products/fue...regulators/carbureted_regulators/parts/12-881

It first puzzled me what to do with the outlet port but this would just get plugged if it was mounted in the same place as the OEM schematic I showed above.
It could be mounted before the check valve (which is a more conventional automotive configuration) but then you would need to cap the output on the check valve, same difference.

Nothing I've found is as compact as the OEM Yamaha FPR so the routing would likely need to be reconfigured once a suitable place to hide it is determined.
I don't want to go this route but if it solves my issues, I'll have to. If I go down this path I'll probably replace the check valve with an electronic solenoid valve triggered by the fuel pump circuit.
There are probably 1,000 different model specific FPR's in the automotive world that look like the Yamaha but of course they don't list the specs, they are not adjustable, and they are set up for fuel injection with much higher pressures.

 

i looked up my bmw k11rs, it's fpr is 68psi and pump is 36 psi. so there's one you can eliminate

 

this place looks promising
https://fuelab.com/fuel-pressure-regulators-low-pressure-applications/