SIMPLE MOD MAY SOLVE POD TUNING HARDSHIPS!

I can't wait to hear the results and am definitely interested in a kit if it works out

 

After all of this bullshit nonsense talk and weird science f***ing with stupid pods, I am going to a stock box and no more problems !.

 

There is no wired science to mechanics and carbs it's just a very simple concept supply fuel with the best atomization to get the best results and performance. If you want to go back to your stock box no one will stop you. I just refunded ricks concept to a hopefully working salution. There is no need for unnessasary language about what you are not doing. Just leave it as you never said anything and do what you want to do. And if it works and you want to join the pods runners we will be here and I will have a nice set of pods with tubes waiting for you. Second note I will have the first test run tomorrow will do my best with a slipping clutch..... Will have a write up on performance and exceleration. Talk to you guy soon..

 

Ya know something folks? I am still tying to figure out the reason to use pods. First you have to buy the pods, and more than likely around $120 in jets. To what end, I ask? It takes a great deal of time and effort to ever get a relatively decent tuning, and by all reports, there will be gaps in the performance curve resulting in power "dead" spots. I am also interested to hear how a bunch of us riders are supposed to do a better job of engineering the air and fuel flow than the PHD engineers used by Yahama

I have always found Rick's ideas and suggestions to be very useful and he has gone well out of his way to be helpful to those struggling with problems. Yeah, poor choice of words for the original title, but he fixed it so wherein lies the problem.

Personally, having directly experience with moronic PO who thought PODs were just too cool so that he violently removed the original airbox to put on PODs. Of course, the bike didn't work right after that despite hundreds spent on shop time.

It would be very interesting if someone who was planning on switching to PODs were to actually test Rick's theory. Technically, I don't think it is really a theory at this point or even a hypothesis but rather educated conjecture.. Theories generally have some supportive experimental results and a hypothesis usually has general agreement as to the expected results with observations already suggesting the "answer".

I read several pages of this thread, 5 actually, before finally jumping to the end. I find the level of acrimony and personal offense to be quite discouraging and suggest that everyone needs to get the chips off of their shoulders.

Rick? as much as I like you and appreciate your input and suggestions, I believe that BigFritz was right about your comments to Polock. I had no sense of offense reading his comments. I actually do the type of thing he did all the time - it is one of the things that makes me a really good software tester. I see things that look like flaws or potential issues for the customer and bring them up to the developers and system engineers. We need people who take our ideas to task.

Clearly, the entire POD issue is one with many opinions and experiences. As I have yet to see some report a completely successful change over to PODs without having ongoing performance issues which proved to be a royal PITA and had a fairly high price tag for the owner, I will avoid them and stongly discourage others from using them on these bikes.If someone comes up with a solution that works, I will gladly acknowledge their success *IF* they can provide plans/instructions and others can replicate the results. YMMV.

This is a great place to hang out, let's keep it friendly.

 

I don't run Pods.
I don't recommend Pods.
I won't recommend Pods.

I feel sorry for those who have listened to others recommending them to try Pods without being offered one, single solitary word of caution.

 

I didn't think you ran PODs Rick. I seem to recall you being one of several to discourage their use back when I first started here.

I have recently notice scum bags on eBay posting PODs "designed" for XJ bikes. Makes me angry that there is no way to get the truth to those duped by these jerks.

 

I get it.

Its a little deceiving. But honestly, how are we gonna sit and badmouth them. Have you ever watched infomercials? Thats all they do is deceive you and make their item look better. Its marketing and capitalism at its finest.

How about those Tornado Gas Savers? How about a movie advertised as the best movie of 2012. How about Famous Daves claim of : "The Best Ribs in Town."

Its speculation at best.

I think its more the responsibility of the consumer to research what they are buying. Period. With the internet, there is no reason not to.

-Kaya

 

And I dont wanna step on toes here, but I have seen a number of bikes that seem to be running just fine. I think its funny that some people here are so tight with their money. Dont restore a motorcycle if you are concerned about costs. On a bike that a new carb joint cost $75. There are a whole bunch of good running bikes available for sale at about $1000.

Im already about $250 into my restore and I havent even started. Pods are cheap, jets are cheap. Buy a colortune, make a YICS tool and manometer.

I think the total costs for a jet kit, pods and tools needed to tune would run about $175 dollars. Subtract the tuning tools costs from that and I would think the total costs of the mods would be about $100.

Now I will be the first to admit, $100 can go a long way with other repairs/restoration that is needed, but in the grand swing of things. I would say $100 is a minimal investment, and even if things dont go the way you intend. It is a fairly cheap lesson learned.

I was never a good, listener and always a better doer. I find I learn way more by making my own mistakes rather than sitting on a computer reading what mistakes others have made. Its still useful, but it doesnt stick with me like it does when I do it for myself.


This thread has been here 3 months, and even the creator of the thread just said :

"I don't run Pods.
I don't recommend Pods.
I won't recommend Pods.

I feel sorry for those who have listened to others recommending them to try Pods without being offered one, single solitary word of caution."


Posting a fix for something, talking about making kits and selling them, and then posting that you dont recommend them..... What does this remind me of? Capitalism at its finest and marketing that needs some work.


If its a guinea pig that you need for your experiment, Ill gladly do it for ya. I just spent 6 years being a guinea pig for the US government. Isnt it kinda crazy that they test medications and vacninations on US soldiers before they allow testing on civilians. Worst part about it is. You dont have a choice to be a tester.

Compression just tested good, valves are getting adjusted, and my carbs are getting back from the ultrasonic cleaner today. Ill do the experiment. Worst case scenario, I gotta remove the kidney covers, and solder a hole closed. Not a big deal to me.

 

Kaya,

I will look forward to your report on your experience. But I still have the question of why even do it? The bike/airflow/fuel mixture are already tweaked out to get maximum performance. To have the PODs actually improve the performance is challenging at best. The Yamaha engineers knew what they were doing and did a damned fine job of it. Trying to surpass their efforts seems to me to be a tail-chasing experience. I guess if one is restoring a bike that didn't have an airbox it might make some sense, but it is still cheaper to get a used box and install it.

Cost? I challenge your math.

As I understand it, you have to replace 3 jets in each carb. At a minimum of $8 per, that is $98 minimum for the jets and assumes you order the correct ones the first time. Are you able to return used jets?

On eBay currently I see cheap generic pods for $8 or so plus shipping. The K&N pods are selling for $46 plus shipping. At a minimum that is another $32, and if you go for the K&N quality, you are looking at another $175.

So if you try to do things on the cheap, you are looking at a minimum of $130 in parts and if you want to use quality components you are looking at around $300.

Now you have to go through the effort of trying to balance carbs, get the correct constant air flow, etc Seems like an AWEFUL lot of work and money for something which will almost certainly *decrease* the performance of the bike.

 

The problem is, people buy these bikes because they don't have the money to buy what they really wanted. Then they try to mod them to look good. Pods?, why not, they look good and they have seen them on other old Jap bikes. Of coarse nobody knew that the other bikes had different carbs.
I give props to Rick for trying to figure it all out. Personally, I would do the velocity stacked pod method and be done with it. If you have the dollars, change the carbs like I did or buy/make a airbox if the pods don't work and be done with it.
For those working on this method, keep on it and good luck to you.

 

If somebody shows-up at my place with Pods and wants to do this Mod, ... I'll do what I can to help.
Don't expect a miracle.

Do expect to do just-about everything we need to do, ... alone.

I'm handicapped, now.
Paid a neighborhood kid to do my last oil change.
My tinkering days are done.

 

All mass produced equipment is built to a cost & a best average otherwise the manufacturer couldn't sell & make a profit or distribute world wide.
Quality control in mass production also affects the production.

So saying you can't improve on a mass produced vehicle or personalise it, or adept it for the area you live in is just putting the blinkers on.

A quote from another thread on this forum discussing what the engineers did
"I don't think Yamaha ever realized that a few of us actually use our bikes as transportation. Or maybe there were so few of us they didn't care.

The MAJORITY of bikes sold in the US, especially in those days, were just "toys." (Still are, actually.) That's why there are so many low-mileage bikes here that suffer from fossilization.

Yamaha knew that and didn't waste money including bits that were largely (because of how they would be used) unnecessary."

 

First pod change before tubs inserted. I have realized that the pods that I installed have a gap between the carb and the boot. So I just cut the boat. This is the pre write up of performance.

1000-2400 - no hesitation idle running rich
2401-4000 - lean very noticeable hesitation
4100-6000 - lean running pulls hard
6000- redline - lean no hesitation really strong acceleration

 

Bulls%*t...as long as you can still communicate you are not done. The wealth of knowledge and skill you have gained, shared, and continue to share is just as much tinkering as if you were turning the wrench yourself.

 

Orange and black what carbs did you switch too?

 

"I'm sure it would improve some if there was a way to mount the Pod to the Rubber Boot."

So why not get a short piece of rubber hose with an I.D. the size of the carb opening, get a piece of pvc pipe with an O.D. the size of the I.D. of the rubber hose and slide the pvc into the rubber hose leaving enough of the pvc protruding out of the rubber hose to attach the pod. You then have a "tunnel" similar to the boot from the airbox to the carb.

Granted I have no scientific reason this would work, just a thought from a novice.

 

Since the beginning of time; it's always been all about speed.
History would have us believe that Man shaped the first wheel from stone about 2500 years BC.

Well-made "Spoked" wheels appeared on carts at: 500 BC.

Still, ... SPEED was what Man wanted and the desire to go a few-hundredths of a second faster over a measured distance than the other guy the never-ending story that helped bring about PODS.

 

To an extent, that is true. At the same time, each of these carbs were tuned to a very specific setting unique to that carb for its best performance and then sealed to prevent future adjustment by the user. Supposedly, this was done as part of the build of the bike

Also, while there is likely to be a small amount of tweaking which might improve performance, I find it difficult to believe that a major component change is going to be beneficial, else I believe Yamaha would have done it that way in the first place.

Wrench, running lean in everything above 2400, where you spend most of your time, is very dangerous as it is running much hotter and you are very likely to hole a piston sooner than later.

 

hey guys did the spark plug test today after boot cut. ran engine in third gear up to red line in stages

color brake down for rich/lean test

1000-2400 tan idle great
2401-5000 lighter tan than previous
5000-7500 light tan
7500-red line darker tan/brown

backfire on geared decceleration

wil take picture next time.
I have not done colortune test at all don't have the tool.
im going to reverify sync this weekend

 

Tan is good ... I believe a colortune is your best direction at this point, so you can actually see the burn in the chamber. Color will tell you temperature ...

 

looking at the colortune plug now... does anyone have one near Washington, DC. i don't have the 80 dollars or so sitting around. and would like to tune correctly. i would like to be able to get all areas running well with the pods.

 

If you already have it running; you can go-to Plug Chops rather than ColorTuniing.

ColorTune is a Tool that lets you find the right Miixture for IDLE.
It helps set the IDLE Mixture correctly to get the Bike to IDLE.

BEFORE ColorTune was available; the process was done by EAR.

::::::
Old School By-ear Tuning
By: Rick Massey
ALL Rights Reserved. ©

Be a Tweaker.
This is “Real Old School Tuning”
By “Ear”

:::: IMPORTANT ::::
Run Electric Fans to provide Air Cooling during Tuning.

Start 2.5 ~ 3 Turns OUT from bottom on all 4 Carbs
For 750 Bikes I’d set them at just between 2-3/4 & 3 … closer to 3
Put two drops of light Oil in each Pilot Mixture Hole.

:::::: IMPORTANT ::::::
Make yourself a screwdriver that FITS the slot on the Pilot Mixture Screw with Precision. Even if yours are loose and won’t bind … you want to be able to “Feel” the Screw moving. If they aren’t loose an ill-fitting screwdriver will destroy the slot, causing a big problem!

Above the Starter Motor ... Under Carbs 2 & 3 is the Idle Adjustment Rod.
It has a Thumb Wheel on the end. Oil it.
You’ll need to be able to make highly precise adjustments without difficulty!

Turn the Idle Rod Clockwise a tiny bit at a time until the engine is running steadily.
Don't exceed 1,200 rpm’s
(1,050 if you can get it. 950 if the Tuning permits)

While the Engine’s running.
Begin the Tweaking.

Turn the Pilot Mixture Screw for #-1 OUT ... real S-L-O-W-L-Y.
Listen for the RPM's to INCREASE.
The revs should rise as you give the Mixture Screw turns OUT for more Fuel and AIR at the Pilot Screw.
This is Pilot Mixture for Idling.

Listen to the Engine very intently. The rpm’s are about to change.

When the revs rise here’s what to do...
Keep the RPM's at 1,100 by reaching under the Carbs and lowering the Idle Adjustment Knob. Stay close to 1,000 rpm’s at all times.

"Tweak" OUT ... the #-1 Pilot Mixture Screw listening to the Engine and Exhaust note VERY Carefully.

Keep turning the SCREW ~> OUT > IF < the RPM's continue to rise.

At some point ... The RPM's ~~> will NOT continue to rise.
Remember this Point. You have to come back to it.
At THIS point ... MICROSCOPICALLY continue the Turning OUT...

UNTIL <~~

The Mixture gets TOO RICH and the Bike:
Coughs
Misfires
Burps
Runs rough
Etc.

>> STOP <<

THEN <~~ Get ready to make a CRITICAL Adjustment.
Pretend you are about to move THE SECOND HAND on a STOPWATCH!
One FULL Turn would be 60 Seconds ... right?
OK.


Turn that Pilot Screw ~~> IN <~~

Two (2) Seconds ... maybe Three (3) (Degrees, small, a (my-nute amount)
Don't go too far.

Run fans to keep the bike cool.
Throttle it up and let it idle.

Adjust the IDLE rpm's with the Idle Adjustment ROD.
1,100 Max

Tweak #-2
Just exactly like #-1

(If the rev's exceed 2,000 ... back-off the IDLE SPEED ROD More)

Then finish-up doing #-3 -&- #-4.

When you are done ... TWEAKING ... you will need to Road Test for THROTTLE RESPONSE.

IF...

You are Idling, say, at a Red Light and when the light turns green and you take-off ... (Getting “Out-of-the-hole”) … and, …

The Bike ~> BACKFIRES a little bit before the Power comes on:
Your LEAN
The Pilot Screws need to be:
Tweaked OUT
Two (2) Seconds.
Chart where you are at from this moment on … +2 Seconds

IF...

You are at the light and take-off...
The Bike ~> HESITATES for the slightest bit before the Power comes on:
Your RICH
The Pilot Screws need to be:
Tweaked IN
Two (2) Seconds. (Almost not turning the screw at all. A nudge!)

Fine-tuning will be complete when you have Tweaked-Out the Backfire or the Hesitation during Further Load Testing.

All further Tweaking is to be done in increments of:

Two Seconds at a time.
Go find a closed Industrial Park and do it all in one sitting.
Have somebody put the tools you need in a sack and follow you over there in the car.
Don’t forget a Flashlight.

Backfire = Lean = OUT

Hesitation = Rich = IN

Go for it!

Get Tweaked
Watch your Plugs and treat each Cylinder individually.
Read the Color of the Plug on the Center Electrode’s Ceramic Collar.
Too Dark (Beyond chocolate brown) Tweak IN: 2-Seconds

Too Clean: (Clean or no coloration) Tweak OUT: 2-Seconds
As you Tweak individual Carbs for the right Mixture … Watch the Plugs coloration at the Center Electrode Ceramic Collar.

Clean:
Bad. Lean.
Tweak Screw OUT for MORE Fuel.
Although the Bike will run superbly Lean like that … it’s a dangerous condition that can HARM the Bike permanently.

Light Tan:
Lean but OK.
This is a Power setting.
The Mixture is burning Fast making big power. You’ll have fast acceleration with the Plugs a light tan.

You must monitor the situation and keep an eye on the Oil Level. If your Oil starts disappearing and you don’t have a leak … you are still too Lean.

Light Brown: Normal

Dark Brown:
Rich.
Most people like to have them at the Dark Brown Mixture setting. The Engine makes good smooth power and cruises really nicely, staying cooler than the Lean settings.

 

Rick's right; use can't use the ColorTune above idle; you'll just destroy it.

Everything above idle is going to have to be done with plug chops and then CAREFUL MONITORING of the plugs. It doesn't take very long between beginning to see little silver flecks on your insulator(s) and the aforementioned hole in a piston or two.

 

So the simple mod does not work without a rejet?
Wasn't that the whole idea of the simple mod?

 

i think it was to help a mid-range, lean flat area

 

I can´t understand why some of you are so negative?

I´m building a café racer and the standard airbox is out of the question, at the moment i´m using 2 K&N dual filters and of course suffering from the lean middle range.

These k&n:s have a built in "velocity stack" measuring about 30 mm, how long is the rubber connector part on generic/noname 4 to 4 pods?

If CV carbs are tunable with this mentioned mod +needle adjustment and a couple of jets this is exellent.

I´m waiting keenly for the results/pictures Wrench!

 

Being negative is not the end of the world. Sometimes people strive to prove the nay sayers wrong. And they then get the final say.

My negativity comes from experience and understanding of the carbs in question.
People seem to act like there is 2 circuits in the carb, idle jets and main jets.
There are progression stages that are tuned by more than one item, and the rise of the slide also interacts.

I believe you can fit pods and make some basic jetting changes to have the bike run acceptably.

I will stay skeptical on any 'simple fix will solve tuning hardships'

Don't complain about my attitude, prove me wrong.

Please.

 

I don't intend to be negative, but rather realistic. When someone says "grab a hammer for me" we all see the basic claw hammer. But then there are all sorts of hammers each designed to perform a particular type of work. Most of them will work for general hammering as well, but someone needing a ball peen hammer is going to find a dry-wall hammer a poor choice for the job. That is the situation I see here. You want a certain look for your bike and rather than getting that type of bike in the first place, you are trying to modify something to fit the bill which just doesn't work right. For whatever reason, the design of these carbs and motors is such that switching to PODs will throw off tuning and cause some areas to be too lean while other areas are right and still others are too rich, regardless to all the time and money spent to rejet and make other modifications. So rather than spending hours and hours along with a hefty chunck of money to try and convert the dry-wall hammer into a ball peen, why not just buy the ball peen in the first place and leave the dry-wall hammer for what it is made?

Just my view - YMMV

 

I love a lively disscussion....

Nothing is ever simple when you customise 8)

 

I tried before to steer you guys in the right direction. What is it that changes when you put put pod filters on your bike? What I can tell you is this does not work The person who started this has not a clue how these carbs work

 

hey guys rick thanks for the input. on the tuning i will tune to that. i have one problem right now the previous owner had the carbs tuned a long time ago and the guy messed up my third carb idle screw very hard to turn. what is a fix to this. if you guy know of one. can we fine replacement screws. or am i just SCREWED.. don't mind the pun.

 

Hey, .... Waldo!
I started this thread.
If there's anything ... at all ... you need to know about these Carbs, ... I'm pretty sure we got it covered, in here.

You've been here since 2009.
We've been hashing the issue of Pods over for 3 years longer than you've been around.

We've tried just about everything there is and done a few Mods that approach Science Fiction, ... long before you checked-in and started telling us we're barking up the wrong tree.

Save the negativity, dude.
WE KNOW.
Been there; done that.
More than once.

This Thread is yet one more to add to a very long list of things to try and do in order to maybe make a Plant with Pods installed run better.

THIS is how we have fun.

 

The Empire strikes back.
So we are up to episode V.



May the pods be with you,






Always!

 

Waldo,
I believe that everyone (here) is aware that it is difficult to accomplish. I certainly don't believe that even the best effort will result in an increase of 30% in power, the amount generally required for human perception to be able to notice the change (without using measurement instruments). For some it is the challenge to increase performance beyond that of the original engineering design. In this case, however, people have been trying for nearly 30 years to do that and so far no one has (to the best of my knowledge) come up with a repeatable conversion kit/design which exceeds the OEM design.

I understand that there are those who just need the "cool" factor, but then why not get the cool bike you wanted in the first place rather than trying to bastardize something else into what you want?

 

That the Mixture Screw WILL turn is a good sign.
You have a fighting chance to get it out.

Here's what has worked for me.
Clean Hold above Screw Top
Fill Hole with Virgin Olive Oil
Heat
::: Olive Oil will NOT Boil or Flame-up
::: Be careful not to get burned
Dump Olive Oil
Add Marvel Oil

Screw --> DOWN ::: Then, ... UP.
A bit more UP each time.

Screw Down
Chase Hole Threads
M6X0.5 BOTTOM TAP
::: BOTTOM TAP --> Flat-ended :::
Clean, Oil, Remove.

Drill center
Use EZ-Out

 

im doing ready on our carbs and engine. i have read about a second mixture screw located between the middle of the carbs on the back of the engine. there is a cover there. this is the 3-4000 range snyc screw. has anyone every messed with them to help out with the pods before.

 

[quote="Wrench26"i have read about a second mixture screw located between the middle of the carbs on the back of the engine. there is a cover there. this is the 3-4000 range snyc screw. has anyone every messed with them to help out with the pods before.[/quote]

If you can find a pic of this screw, post it. Never heard of it and would love to see it. Sounds like the idle adjustment screw to me.

 

will get the picture there are def two located on bike will take picture of cover and post asap. maybe that is alot of the problem with the pods... always leaning otu at the 4k range

 

here is the page i read about it at... http://www.drpiston.com/hitachicarbs.html

 

I just looked at the Hitachi Link.

He'd DEAD WRONG about the Pilot Mixture Screws.

The Pilot Mixture Screws control --> AIR.
There is a Branch Connection on the AIR Passage that draws Fuel up from the Pilot Fuel Jet.

The Screw CONTROLS the Air Flow.
There's NO Fuel Adjustment.
More or Less Fuel beyond what gets supplied by the Jet requires changing the Pilot Jet.

 

Ok he may be wrong on a few things but the question really is if your not sync'd at 4K would that cause lean conditions because carb/engine is fighting each other. Could this if it does be ajusted to help cruising speed leanness.

 

If you're sync'ed at idle, you're sync'ed at 4K RPM. How would you sync under a cruising load, unless you're on a dyno, at $85 / HR ??

 

i sync my bmw at 4K and idle but that's FI. the sync at two speeds is mainly for smooth throttle response

 

Well now, depends on what one is referring to as "syncing". Anytime one adjusts the air/fuel mixture, it is done so per cylinder or carb, not necessarily syncing the four carbs. Syncing is adjusting the butterfly openings equally across all four carbs.

 

I have to do a lot more research on this other adjustment screw and see what it really does. And still have to finish the last two breather pipes. Been so busy.

 

Rick,
FYI: Avacado oil has a much higher smoke temperature than olive oil. You might want to try that some time ... It is the best oil I have experienced for popcorn. Gets hotter than most without any burning and provides its own natural buttery taste! Ymmmm uhmmmm.

 

I did not even know there was such a think as avocado oil. I will defiantly give that a try.

 

Williams-Sonoma back in about '89 was the place I learned of it. Unfortunately, it is very hard to find for cooking and always ridiculously expensive as such. It is used more commonly by the cosmetics industry and much cheaper there. I have never experimented with a cosmetic version as I have no idea what might be different in the processing or any of the additives which might or might not be present ... frustrating really, as it is excellent in cooking.

 

briefly:
The airbox has a volume of about a gallon, and a restricted inlet, and a restrictive filter.
Each intake stroke demands up to 5% of this volume - the demand comes in pulses. It ends up being less than atmospheric pressure by a small amount.
PODS do not have these restrictions.
RickCoMatic explains that some of the incoming air crosses the "D" shaped opening in such a way as to set-up a Bernoulli Effectand some turbulence that is not there in the stock configuration. This affects an important air metering jet that needs to "see atmospheric pressure". The recent, brilliant solution is to directly "pipe-in" some atmosphere.
****I'd like to add that the tube doesn't need to go thru the end of the POD- just near the end, the tube could have small perforations on the lower surface to get the "average air pressure" in the POD to the "D" opening. (small holes change the sound in a flute - holes smaller than the air jet) This also eliminates the need for "mini-filters".

What doesn't work?? How do you know??