starter clutch issues

Don't fight those Torx Screws.
You can damage them and then you'll make the job miserable if not impossible to continue without resorting to the "Long Form"

The Impact Tool is on sale.
It will be the best 20-Bucks you'll ever spend.

A couple of whacks on the Impact Tool and you'll be done with those Torx Screws that went in there with a generous amount of Thread Locker.

 

Plus two on the hand held impact tool! I have removed countless tough screws with mine. One of my favorite tools in my box!

 

If you can find one cheap enough, these are the be-all and end-all of manual impact wrenches:

The Swench!

How does 2000 lb/ft from a manual wrench grab you. Of course, at $3000 for a 1" drive unit, they aren't for everybody. The 1/2" is good for 500 lb/ft (adjustable) which would be a bit more practical.

 

I've already one.
No. Two.
I use them every week.
I mean; every day.
Minute.
Second.
Constantly using it!

SNL Chic - LOL

 

Looks like my starter clutch is gone too, so from viewing the posts, it looks like it's over haul time ... rats... only got a couple of rides in since I bought the bike.

 

Wow good reading as i was /am having this problem,(read 3 pages to get a good idea of it) but it kicks in and out but often just starts right up. i have Mobil 1 20w50 in it and am wondering if the synthetics is the problem? just regular ol plain a## oil huh? i so love the mobil 1.....(has worked well over the years for me),what about an additive like maybe PROLONG thats supposed to TREAT THE METAL not the oil??? thanks in advance!

 

I rebuilt the engine completely, changed the starter clutch , and have just over 500 miles on it now. I'm using Mobil 1, and it seems to run better every time I get on it. Mobil 1 was recommended to me by several small engine machanics as a break in oil. But if the bike is happy, I continue to use it. Several threads in here about chaps using a heavier oil ...W40 or W50.

 

That Mobil-1, 20W/50 says it's made for Bikes.
I don't know.

The Trans-Clutch and the Starter-Clutch are two different mechanisms.
The Starter Clutch has some "Moving Parts" that replace worn-down parts that engage to start the Bike.

You get a handful of Springs and Pins that replace the ones in the Starter Clutch that's gone bad. Reasonably priced; too!
That's the GOOD News.

The BAD News is:
How many pages of Workshop Manual Engine tear-down instructions it takes to illustrate the removal of the Engine and it's complete dismantling to gain access to the Starter Clutch and it's tiny parts.

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man.
It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the cases of your Engine and the pit of your stomach.

This is the dimension of imagination and the realization of being totally screwed and in denial about it.
It is an area which we call "The Twilight Zone".

 

these bikes were built before synthetics and I have yet to see one that didnt have problems with either the trans clutch or starter clutch when running it.

 

What parts of the starter clutch will need replacing, is it just the 3 pins, springs, gismos?

 

on the vee-twins the BODY cracks at the guide slots from the engine kicking back against the starter; not sure if that's as common on the XJs.

 

Is this technique of getting to the starter clutch through the alternator some sort of cruel secret joke you guys play on newbies!?!
I got everything apart but I don't see for the life of me how you are supposed to be able to do anything with the clutch like that! HELP!!! I don't want to split the cases!

1983 XJ750MK Midnight Maxim

 

i'am with you there, i tried and failed myself
look at it this way, that stuff you took off will need to be off when you split the cases anyhow
it might be one for Myth Busters

 

Send a Private Message to Member:

redcentre3

He has successfully done the short-cut and may be able to assist you.

 

That so called short cut CANNOT be done, bite the bullet & split the cases.
Have you put an endoscope in there to see if the hub is cracked? if it is, which is most likely your problem, the 'short cut' would not help you anyhow. Wiz............

 

It is the PERSONAL OPINION of a Member that the procedure cannot be done.

It is the Practical Experience of a Member who HAS successfully accomplished the task.

It's been done.

Perhaps calling it a "Shortcut" is a mistake.
It's a do or die shot in the dark you try before splitting cases if you have the nerves and patience.

It's a great trick.
The "Pledge" is getting the Starter Clutch Fixed without Splitting Cases.
The "Turn" requires great finesse and the patience of a Saint.
The Prestige!
I've had dinner with one who earned The Prestige.

It's one of those jobs that falls into the category of Virtually Impossiblity.
Like swapping a Starter Motor on an early E-Type Jaguar without removing the Exhaust Manifold.

 

Hi Guys...here's the ORIGINAL write-up from the man who did it - member bike-man-man. Everything thing has to fit in place for it to work out. One small ooops and the short way is no longer the short way. Here's bike-man-man's original post followed by the link to the original discussion:

Yes, it is possible, however if you drop the rollers, springs, or spring caps in the crankcase, you going to have to do it the "right" way anyway...Be prepared....The keys are some patience and go slow...

I'm doing this from memory so if I left something out or you have a question, please let me know....

First I took off the starter assembly off and the alternator cover and positioned it aside...Next you must remove the stator (the big copper thing inside the cover that spins w/the engine) there's a bolt in the middle to remove, but the stator has to be pressed off the shaft, you'll have to have a special tool...I've seen them on ebay, but I modified an old harmonic balancer removal tool (the threads were the same)...If you look at the stator it has threads cast into its housing, thread the special puller bolt into that, and while turning the puller, the stator will slide off the shaft....Next, remove the three torx screws that hold the retainer plate to the case....Then, the oil spray tube can be removed...Now the tricky part, pull the shaft out of the case (the starter clutch unit will fall down) using long screw drivers separate the two halfs of the clutch mechanism....The half closest to you will have the chain wrapped around it, and half farthest from you will contain the rollers, springs, and spring caps....Using the long screwdriver, hold the farther section up higher than closer, using another screwdriver you can manipulate, and rotate the clutch/roller mechanism around to remove the three rollers, springs, and caps....A telescoping magnet will help alot...Reassemble the opposite of removal, go slow, make sure both halves of the clutch mate together properly, use a dab of grease to hold the springs, and caps together....

I will also add as a side note, as it may or may not be required to do so, but I did have the trans clutch removed while doing this, and I also unbolted the idler gear that goes between the starter and the starter clutch(this is done from the trans clutch side)....The idler gear will fall down an inch but can easily be manipulated with magnets and screwdrivers...

I think that's it....I will say, that not doing this the "right" way saved a TON of time, but it is risky, and could cause engine damage if not done correctly...I had nothing to lose, the springs cost $2 a piece, and I got the bike for $100....It now starts and runs good, although I haven't gotten to ride it yet..

If there's enough interest in this procedure, I'd be willing to do it again, and photo document everything....I will accept donations...

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=480.html

red

 

Rick I'll change your Jag starter if you fix my clutch!! lol
I sent recentre3 a pm and asked if I could borrow his magic fingers. Thanks for the advice guys! I'll let you know how things progress (or don't)

 

Red how did you seperate the clutch halves? I poked around a bit with my fingers and lightly with a screw driver but was a bit unsure of what to do there.

 

For the avoidnce of doubt, this cannot be done in the manner proscribed, the fatal flaw in the description is: "when you separate the 2 halves, the half farthest from you will contain the rollers", not so, the only part that will separate is the driven gear & bush, the rollers are then facing away from the shaft opening & cannot even be seen.
Come round to my place, Red & I will take the pictures, I have a bike all nicely exposed. Wiz.....

 

Wiz, looking at the exploded parts view it shows the springs and rollers facing toward the primary chain. I'm confused.

 

That is correct, Tomh, but the hub is bolted to the chain carrier with 3 8mm cap head screws, lock tighted & peened over, it cannot be unbolted in possition.
Rick, it is unwise & even culpable behavior to encourage members to attempt this foolhardy proceedure & how do you know that replacing the rollers, springs & guides, will cure the problem? it's unlikely.
Another misnomer, is that "if the rollers etc drop, the 'short cut' is over" why, you drop the pan off & you can poke those parts through the hole & out the bottom, all day long, like a fruit machine at Caesar's Palace & although that might be amussing, in the short term, it won't fix the starter clutch.

 

when i tried, i did everything right till i was looking it square in the eye
and i poked and jiggled and twisted and pushed for 20 minutes and made no progress
then i said "self this ain't gona work" and started taking the pipes off
and if anybody succeeds God bless ya your a better man than me
then i found the clutch in three pieces so i won

 

The Original Post, which appeared on another Site, resulted from an attempt to answer a question about Servicing the Starter Clutch without Splitting Cases.

I interviewed a highly competent Yamaha Technician and wrote what he told me could be done.

Now, there are Field Reports and Real World Experiences, we can add your experiences and comments to the Post.

 

After looking at the exploded view again, I believe the Wizzard is right..... the clutch halves are bolted together. My mechanical experience, human hands and earthly tools can't get it done this way.
I really appreciate everybody's input and after I split the cases I will take and post pics of the culprit and hopefully save someone from agonizing over this like I have.
Anybody know how much beer it takes to split the cases and get things back together again?
Seriously if there are any secret gremlins I should know about before hand, I would greatly appreciate any tips and tricks! (hint hint Wiz?)

Thanks so much guys! I'll let you know how it goes!

 

Tomh, you best ask Polock, I know he has done it the orthodox way & will gladly mark your card, as for the wiz, he has embarked on a totaly different approach. See 'project 900' in chat...........

 

yea, the chainsaw method

 

I just read through the "900 project" and I gotta say I never thought about getting the starter clutch out that way! It got me thinking though.... and I DO have a 3lb hammer around here somewhere!

 

read carefully; Wiz didn't really take a hammer to it, he cut it away.

 

LOL.... I was only joking about the hammer, Although the bonfire method keeps creeping into my mind too!
I guess I'll bite the bullet and start the engine removal and disassembling process. YUCK!

After cleaning the carbs, this bike runs awesome and idles great (when I can get the engine to turn over). Whats the possibility of getting the motor out and flipping it over and attacking the starter clutch from the bottom without disturbing the top end? (manual has not arrived yet and bike only has 10k miles on it)

 

You don't need to disturb the top end.

 

Got the cases split and the culprit clutch in hand. Let me say this , I am working on a 1983 XJ750MK MIDNIGHT MAXIM and there is ABSOLUTELY no way the you can replace the springs and rollers in the starter clutch on this bike through the alternator opening ..... period.......ain't gonna happen....case closed.
I took pictures and will post them when I get time but I just happen to buy a 1980 XS11 Special yesterday that has me side tracked for the moment! Guy sold it cheap because it was only running on two cylinders. One new battery and 4 new plugs and it runs like a scalded dog! YeeHaw!!

 

Tomh, is the clutch hub cracked?
What about posting a 'how to' on replacing the starter clutch, I'm sure there are a bunch of members needing to know. Wiz...........

 

The hub was not cracked but it does show wear and one of the rollers is has a slight flat spot. I have taken some pictures of the process and am now waiting on my new starter clutch to arrive. ($75 new) It might be possible to clean up the old one and put new rollers and springs in it but considering I had to completely disassemble the bottom to get to it, I'm putting a whole new clutch in it. Right now the motor is in a thousand pieces but when I get the parts and get it back together I will try to explain the process and post some pictures to clarify why this CANNOT be done through the alternator housing. I have never done one of these before so I can't say it is impossible on all XJ's but I can tell you on this 83 XJ750MK, it most definitely requires splitting the cases.

 

1983 XJ750 Midnight Maxim Starter Clutch

Yay! Happy happy joy joy! Starter clutch fixed, engine back together and bike running again. No more starter slippage.
This project was not extremely difficult but it was time consuming. About 20 hours total time involved. Probably could have done it quicker but a fellow has to drink a beer now and then.
Let it be known that I tried EVERYTHING before splitting the cases.
This was pretty straight forward wrenching but anytime you split the cases on an engine you need to be somewhat mechanically inclined or experienced or have a buddy that is. This is probably not a project for a beginner mechanic. Attention to detail and a shop manual is a must for torque specs and reference.
As for replacing the springs and rollers through the alternator housing, I say BULL FEATHERS! Not on this motor! Not to offend anyone who says they can do it but I would have to see it to believe it! I took some pictures and if you look at all of them and reference what you're looking at by where the primary chain is, I think you can see why I say it's impossible to do it through that little opening. Heck I would like to see somebody just put the springs and rollers in with two screwdrivers with the clutch laying on the bench!
If anybody has any questions, feel free to ask. This forum is such a great resource I'll be happy to give a little back.

 

I tried to add the photos and could not get them to show up. I guess I'm better at wrenching than pushing buttons. Anybody that wants the pics let me know. (or if someone cares to tutor me on posting them I'll put them up)
For now the pictures can be seen in my album "Starter Clutch Pictures"

Link to pictures:
http://xjbikes.com/coppermine/cat=16384.html

 

Make sure you replace the starter chain tensioner while you are in there, they do rot out and do the parts dance all over the transmission gears, ensuring a locked up tranny.

 

So, I am bringing this back instead of starting a new thread. When the starter clutch is bad, does the starter makes a bad grinding without turning the engine? My bike, only when hot, time to time when I hit the start button it just grinds nasty, but will start the next 2 or so times attempted. Is that the starter clutch or maybe the starter itself. My bikes an 82 750 Maxim with about 15,000 hard p o miles.

 

I should add I have put 500 miles on the bike since it sat for a number of years and passed through 3 of my friends hands "trying" to get it running, I have changed the oil 3 times since this early spring, I use Vavoline 20 50 wet clutch oil.

 

When the clutch is bad it makes an awful racket. Sounds like grinding/clacking/rattling all at the same time. Mine would work maybe one out of 10 times. Usaually a bad starter either doesn't work at all or barely turns the engine,
The seafoam in the crankcase trick helped a tiny bit on mine but when I took it apart you could see scarring on the clutch and rollers so it had obviously been slipping quite some time. If your bike just started doing this it might be worth it to try the seafoam crankcase flush. It may be that your starter clutch has got gunk in it and it is gummed up from bad/dirty oil over the years.
As a side note, make sure you're using MOTORCYCLE oil. Regular oil has additives of all kinds that can effect your starter clutch as well as your transmission clutch.
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

 

Thanks, it just started doing this to me, the oil is for motorcycles, I am hoping it is just gunked but have my doubts, I hate to change the oil again so soon it is becoming costly!! I will try the seafoam and try to get to the starter clutch to shoot with solvent as suggested earlier in this thread. Thanks

 

I made a wd40 spray tube out of some flexible clear tubing that would fit over the little red tube that comes with the can and worked it in and around as good as I could from both sides of the engines. Still didn't fix it, but it was worth a try.(I already had the alternator out trying to figure out how to change rollers and springs like was mentioned here.....but that's another story)

 

Good picture links, Tomh, for those of us, like you & I, Tomh, who have actually been in there, KNOW without any shade of doubt, that the so called quick fix is a figment of RickCoMatic's imagination, because, as you point out, the rollers face AWAY from the generator. I am still awaiting an apology from said RCM, for stating that it was just my lack of skill that precluded me from carrying the fictional SHORT CUT. I further point out that the $500 reward from Chacal still remains unclaimed & always will.

 

Hi Folks,

I've left my job of 10 years recently and have been "on the road" touring around my fine country for a few months.

It seems there has been a bit of controversy brewing about the starter clutch repair.

Sounds like we need to tone things down a bit on some of these posts mainly because all those involved have come at the topic from a well meaning direction and are just trying to help others.

Rather than focussing too much on individuals and their posts/opinions, and even if it wasn't intended, making it sound like a personal attack on that member for holding a particular view, we need to focus back on the issue itself.

Below is a link to the original post on this topic from bike-man-man from Texas in 2006. His post details how he changed the springs on his XJ's starter clutch. No-one said it was easy. And one person's level of skill and fine motor skills may be different from another's.

But we have to take on board the detailed nature of the post and the instructions. If the prospect of attempting to go through the alternator housing fills you with uncertainty and dread at dropping something inside the crankcase...DON'T DO IT. If you believe this method is un-achievable...DON'T DO IT. Don't even start the exercise. Take the longer route of splitting the crankcase or cut through the top of the crankcase above the starter clutch mechanism.

From time to time we may come across solutions on the forum to simple or complex problems and those solutions prove not to work...for you/me. And it has happened to me. Following someone else's route to fixing something ended in a dead end for me. But that's not to say it was impossible. Nor was it a trigger to have a go at the member who was trying to be helpful.

I'm not sure how it is on other bikes but Yamaha's design and location of the starter clutch and the lack of serviceability creates a situation of looking for alternative fixes. I guess the Yamaha geniuses decided that the starter clutch would outlast the serviceable life of the bike itself. Well, hell, haven't we proved them wrong!!! ;-)

How about we just agree to disagree on the process. Firstly, if you have this problem, research the topic to exhaustion. Then, those that want to try the alternator housing method have the instructions to give it go. If you're not convinced this is for you...take the safe and sure route of splitting the cases. Simple...a personal decision based on available facts.

But let's keep this about helping others and not about running other members down or offering rewards, even if it is with the very best of intentions...sometimes, it just doesn't come across that way in the written word. Far different if we were sitting around shooting the breeze over a beer and chatting face to face.

For me, back on the road for a few weeks then a new job and being a more regular contributor to this fine forum!

Bike-man-man's original 2006 post is at the link below:


http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=480.html

 

Stuff the link, Red, are you now saying you attempted the quick fix, but didn't achieve it ? if so tell Rick, because he has hung a whole lot on your testimony. PM me & fix up a date for a face to face chat, now you are back in town. Wiz.

 

I don't get it, still.

Aren't the screws facing the wrong way to be able to do it that way? Wiz, didn't you take pics after you "bashed in the roof" on the 900? Weren't the screws facing outward? Did you save the pics?

Go back and read the post that everyone claims is proof. "I'm doing this from memory" is the phrase that jumps out. Memory of what, a Kawi or a Honda? "Twarn't an XJ; maybe an XS or a Virago, I don't know. Seems the memory missed the detail of the clutch being bolted to the backing flange from the other side, unless he was remembering a bike that ISN'T built that way.

I looked in the fiche; and physics is physics. You can't get to the springs and rollers from the back without unbolting the clutch from the plate it's bolted to. The bolts face the right and come out to the right. They can't even be seen from the left, except maybe their "butts." there's no way you can get to them from their backside. I don't see how it can even be disputed.

It's not like we're discussing the effectiveness of YICS; this one's kinda clear cut.

I don't get it.

I'd join you for that beer but I'm like 15000 miles away, according to Google maps.

 

Interesting Fitz, red Centre NOW says he didn't actually manage the short cut fix, so all we have is the unsigned how to, which is either wishful thinking or just a out & out fraud. before getting into the technical issues that you outlined, something jumps right out, where the guy says "if you drop a roller the fix is all over" why ? drop the pan & you can drop those suckers through all day. & yes you nailed the flaw in the cunning plan, once you get to sight the s~clutch through the tiny gen'orifice, the rollers, pins & springs are facing away from you. Chacal has tried this method with the cases SPLIT & still couldn't do it. It's time "quick fix"was put away forever, never to be mentioned again, it just gives people false hope when there is none. I wasted hours trying to do this, while some smart ass was laughing his tits off at my distress. Feel free to jump in here Rick.

 

I don't think it was a hoax. There are other, similarly designed Yamahas, that the clutch appears to be separate enough to pull it off. Just not an XJ650/750/900. The guy said it was from memory, he was probably remembering a different bike is all.

I looked in all three fiches. It just ain't happening. The rollers, pins and springs are not only facing the other way, they're on the other side of the deeply flanged plate that the clutch is bolted to.

Glad you found the pic. Now somebody explain how to disengage the sprocket from the chain, pop the clip, get the sprocket out of the way and then turn the assembly on the OTHER SIDE AROUND so you can get to the rollers and springs.

Long screwdrivers be damned. He had to be "remembering" a different bike.

 

When I was Moderating another defunct JX-Forum, over 8 years ago, the question was raised if there was some way to service the Starter Clutch without a total engine tear-down.

I went and interviewed a Yamaha-schooled Factory Technician.

I wrote a piece detailing the process he explained to me while we were both looking at a 900 schematic.

The article has bounced-around and subsequent to its first appearance, elsewhere, has been added too and revised by those who attempted the feat.

After being informed that the process did, in fact, ... work quite well, I posted the article, here, where questions regarding its authenticity have sparked a wildfire.

I authored the original article, which appeared elsewhere, which two people said they they used to successfully overhaul their starter clutches.

Now, we arrive at the point where a familiar chorus claims that the process is impossible and that its something I dreamed-up.
NO. I merely reported what was presented as fact.

Now, I'm on the horns of a dilemma.
I can't prove it works.
Can''t prove it don't.

But, for the record ... let's say that until someone comes along with the PROOF that is DOES work; I yield to those who claim it does not.