starter clutch issues

Rick, so next time someone asks about a quick fix for the starter clutch, you won't be saying " there is a possible, if your smart enough to pull it off" ?

 

If he's nearby; I'll just tell him to load it into a truck and bring it over.
I think there's a way we might be able to make short work of it.
I'll rummage around until I find the tape I recorded the interview on.
We'll give it a shot.
One guy says he did more than Pins and Rollers.
That's interesting.
And we'll dig in and get her done. Short way or long way.
See how it works out.

 

starter clutch

You can't lock that thread, Rick, I'm not finished yet, you crossed the line & I want an apology.

 

Re: starter clutch

I've got to agree.

What the heck, Rick?

I've requested over and over to have valuable "how-to's" locked and stickied or moved to "FAQ Final" and it never happens. "Airhead Valve Adjustment" is like 9 pages long now.

Now you're on the losing end of a spirited debate over the viability of a particular service procedure and the thread suddenly gets locked to prevent any more discourse on the matter?

That, Mr. Massey sir, is not honorable behaviour, nor is it what we'd expect from you. Quite frankly, I'm flabbergasted.

For shame.

 

Re: starter clutch

Aside from the angst, I'm interested in the outcome of someone trying this and determining if its possible. It's been said by 1 person on the forums that they did it, and then he disappeared without any proof, and a yamaha tech that for all we know could have been blowing smoke.

 

Re: starter clutch

Rudie; You've got a 550, don't even worry about it. The starter clutch is virtually the same part as the bigger bikes, which means it's way "overdesigned" for the 550s. As long as you keep the motor in a good state of tune and run the correct oil, chances of you having a starter clutch problem are slim and none.

I don't know that I've ever seen anybody with a cracked one from a 650 even, unless that's where Polock's came from. The odd 750 here and there, or the 900s. On the other hand, they're nowhere near as notorious for that as the Virago (or the XV920R.) The big V-twins were horribly hard on that design.

And that's another reason that this "debate" is pretty much moot to begin with. RARELY do only the rollers and springs need replacing; the repair is usually done because the housing cracked. And you sure as heck ain't gonna get the housing out through a hole that's about half its diameter.

Angst, schmangst. Rick the Ornery shouldn't have locked the other thread. I'm still in shock.

 

I am the only person that can truly claim to have carried out a shortcut for replacing the starter clutch, the problem is, I wouldn't recommend the method to anyone. (

 

In an effort to put this to rest; I made a call to YAMAHA.
I received a return call from YAMAHA Motor's NorthEast District Technical Services Representative.

We spoke of the alleged Starter Clutch Short and the storm of controversy it ignited.
He told me the YAMAHA has an incentives program for Time Saving Service Procedures submitted for all processes that would be an appreciable time saving alternative to recommended practices.

The process outlined to me, in an interview with a Yamaha Technician, DOES NOT APPEAR in any database, at the present and going back to the introduction of the XJ Series Models.

Based on this new information; the process is NOT recommended.

Oddly enough, there are several Post appearing in our Archives, which claim that a Member did follow the process in the ALLEGED Shortcut and was successful.

The advice given to me from YAMAHA's NorthEast Technical Adviser is to advise the Membership the process is NOT KNOWN to him and should NOT be recommended.

Despite claims of success appearing in these Archives, and relying on the YAMAHA's review and recommendations:

The Starter Clutch Shortcut is NOT RECOMMENDED.

 

Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

In an effort to put this to rest; I made a call to YAMAHA.
I received a return call from YAMAHA Motor's NorthEast District Technical Services Representative.

We spoke of the alleged Starter Clutch Short and the storm of controversy it ignited.
He told me the YAMAHA has an incentives program for Time Saving Service Procedures submitted for all processes that would be an appreciable time saving alternative to recommended practices.

The process outlined to me, in an interview with a Yamaha Technician, DOES NOT APPEAR in any database, at the present and going back to the introduction of the XJ Series Models.

Based on this new information; the process is NOT recommended.

Oddly enough, there are several Post appearing in our Archives, which claim that a Member did follow the process in the ALLEGED Shortcut and was successful.

The advice given to me from YAMAHA's NorthEast Technical Adviser is to advise the Membership the process is NOT KNOWN to him and should NOT be recommended.

Despite claims of success appearing in these Archives, and relying on the YAMAHA's review and recommendations:

The Starter Clutch Shortcut is NOT RECOMMENDED.

 

"RECOMMENDED" isn't the right word, it should be "POSSIBLE"

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

Actually the response from Yamaha does not really mean much.

As a factory trained mechanic (car) in the 80s, I submitted many such ideas - there was even a money incentive.

Most were not taken on, but because the I thought my suggestions were brilliant and time saving, I followed up the rejected ideas.

In a nutshell, if the factory thought it was beyond the skills of the average technician, it would not consider the procedure.

Keyhole surgery is out of the skill set of the average tech.

As for the starter clutch, I have no comment at the moment, but will have soon as I will be assembling my big bore engine soon, and will also have the current engine coming out to try it on. If it can be done, I will take pics.

 

Yeah I do believe the issue was whether it was physically possible or not. Not if yamaha recognized or recommended it.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

Suggestion: take pics anyway, even if it can't be done. That way, you can illustrate why it doesn't work. You could even do a writeup on it. :mrgreen:

 

You are not putting the matter to rest Rick, you are just obfuscating.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

Is there a reason this was double posted? Snosheriff merged the two topics of this issue, and now there's another seperate one.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

Mr Sheriff will probable merge this one as well.

 

Could we come back to the original issue?

Which is whether or not this likely futile repair is even possible? It's a way to supposedly replace the rollers and springs; but why?

Honestly, I think it's a moot point. And not just because both the fiche and photographic evidence support the impossibilty of the task--

I've never heard any evidence of anyone ever having to replace JUST rollers and springs. Every time I've seen this repair documented a broken clutch body was discovered; cracked at the slots for the springs and rollers. Further, I'm personally aware of two instances of guys having to make the repair on V-twin Yammies, and in both cases the clutch body was split at the slots.

The simple fact of the matter is, you're not going to "keyhole" a new clutch body in there.

And, since you CAN'T SEE it, how would you know it was broken unless you took it all apart anyway? (Unless you bashed in the roof, the Wiz method.)

I'd rather discuss something a tad more practical; like is it possible to replace the "primary" chain guide on a 650/750/900 without splitting the cases?

THAT'S one I'd like a definitive answer to.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

but book-time is book-time, and if they can have a short-cut to fix something, they'll do it. That way they can do a quick fix and still charge book-timel If they can fix a proverbial three in less time than listed as book, they can charge for three and make three times the money in less than a third of the time.

dave

 

primary chain guide, sure Fitz, i changed one once while the engine was still running, with a butter knife and some vice grips, with gloves on, at a red light, in the dark, while it was raining

 

That's not true, Polock, the light was on amber.
Fitz, the original issue for me, is that Rick said the fix was on & I wasn't skilled enough to carry it off. That & he kept telling desperate members there was hope of a quick fix, even after I had proved it was a no go.
Still waiting for an apology.

 

Polock, I was serious. I've got two happy little XJ550Rs and one "ticking time bomb" 650R with 13K on it. If I ever want to be able to trust it to jump on and ride 600, 700, 1000 miles from home like I can the 550s, I'm going to have to proactively change the bloody primary chain guide. I've heard tales of just pulling the sump (I'd pull the engine and flip it, not just flip the bike over) to gain the necessary access. If it can be done without splitting the cases, I'd rather do it that way.

Wiz, I believe you're more than skilled enough; you actually DID a "shortcut" version of the fix, about the only way it can be done. That one falls under CBE. (Crude But Effective.) And effective it was.

 

ok, it was a long light
kidding aside, the front bolt is in front of the crank, the old one has a bolt by the starter clutch and the rear one is about where the alternator is. then you have to wiggle poke and tap the old one out under(or over, depending) the crank, then i had to grind some excess off of the sides of the new one to get it back past the crank, i really don't think it's going to happen through the oil pan

 

Wizard, you can hand it out. But, you can't take it.

Show these fine people you are capable of grasping-hold of two vary important concepts regarding this ridiculous crusade of yours to discredit me.
You keep ignoring two facts claiming MY Shortcut is impossible.
1. IT ain't mine. I attributed it to the source three times.
2. Well, ... gosh. I don' t know how to break this to you gently. Somebody did it!

1. I didn't dream it up. I interviewed a Factory Trained Yamaha Technician and filed a REPORT on the Interview.
It ain't my process.
I didn't dream it up.
It was a column.
I wrote what somebody else said.
Properly attributed to the source of the material.
Several times.

And this wrinkle for you to smooth out.
2. It's been done!

Australian XJ-Bikes member [ redcenter003 ] used the steps outlined by the Yamaha Technician, ADDING a few of his own and became the Reigning Czar of Starter Clutch Short-cutting.

The archives show that others have asked me to clarify a point or two.
I declined.
I alerted the sites Shortcut Czar that a Member needed his expertise in solving the Starter Clutch Puzzle and redcenter003 would come to the rescue and walk the member-in-distress through the mine-field.

Amazing!

Simply amazing!

But even move astonishing is this.

Redcenter003 visited Boston two years ago and was a guest at my home.
My wife and I were delighted to hear of the stories of his travels and some of the unusual creatures of the Land Down Under.
We loved that he had been to Little River and has seen the very road sign appearing on The Little River Band's Album Cover.

We talked Seca-900's and Bike-building and eventually got around to discussing the difficulty presented in the Starter Clutch Shortcut.

I hung on his every word.
In great detail, he told me that the successful completion of replacing the Rollers, Springs and Pins in his 900 took going beyond the steps in the sketch provided by the Yamaha Technician.
Then, he told me what he added and the risk he took, ... but the story ended with him having slain the dragon, saving the princess, conquering the enemy and standing alone at the summit of Mount Starter Clutch.
He did it!

There I was.
In the presence of The Man ... The Legend ... Starter Clutch King.

Don't cite him as your lead witness for impossibility.
Not only did he do it; he advised several others.

 

Wait one silly second here--

"solutions prove NOT TO WORK" "ended in a dead end for me."

I'm reading that Red is saying it DIDN'T WORK for him, not that he was able to accomplish it. The above quote is from his response of October 25 of this year.

I guess the only person that can definitively answer is redcentre003 himself, but it looks pretty plain to me that he said he DIDN'T manage to do it that way.

That being the case, we still have zero evidence that anyone has ever accomplished what appears from every other angle to be simply impossible (as well as a waste of time, for reasons I've already mentioned.)

 

Does seem quite odd to me.

A very old and wise man once taught me this:

"Richard, when in doubt, don't make a fool of yourself.
There is a thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like a damn fool. You're fine as long as you stick to telling the truth."

So far, ... so good.

 

There is another old saying, Rick "it is better to keep quiet & be thought a fool than to speak up & remove all doubt"

& FYI I'm not trying to discredit you, you're doing fine all on your own.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

Im reluctant to do ANY surgery, key hole or not, based on a "manual only" as my only guide. Small grainy fuzzy black and white pictures do not shine a light in the dark for me personally. I find the manuals somewhat lacking and unclear at times. I will always search here first as well as throughout any engine adventure I have.
Now on the other hand the write ups and pics on surgeries that are already on here are considered open for business in my garage.
IF it can be done and there is a write up done in true forum style it WILL go on my to do list.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors USA

I've been looking for the original notes to see if I omitted anything from what got written-down from what got written-up.

I opened a box with no label and found a new set of 900 Instruments, Front and Rear Calipers and an Original Headlight.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Shortcut "NOT Recommended" YAMAHA Motors

Always a battle between the almighty buck and lawyers trying to extract that hard earned $. So auto tech replies would easily be tainted by lawsuit threats, motorcycles not as much. Sadly it's going to be true both ways: they want short cuts, but are reluctant to broadcast for obvious reasons. I would guess that as difficult as this one seems it can't be that much of a "shortcut" even if it did work. Thinking about the way it could work reminds me of driving in a foreign place and not asking for directions (because you think it will be easier to just keep going and then you end up lost and wasting time)..hmm..time.