Starter Clutch Repair help needed.- RESOLVED!!!

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Ouch, no, it's hidden by the gear cluster. I would hope not, as the PO says he never had any problems with starting. So, the springs push the dogs out towards the face of the plate, or to the outside circumference?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Just caught up with this earlier thread as follows:

Just to be absolutley sure; I had pulled the starter apart & cleaned it out. I notice the idler wheel that the starter contacts to drive the clutch only spins in one direction. There is no poss way I could have the starter spinning in the wrong direction I assume?

Funny you should mention this...I had the starter off a while ago to replace the brushes and when I tested it it went fine - when I put it back on the bike it ran fine as well, but didn't engage the starter clutch??? After a thorough CSI type investigation I discovered that I had rotated the brush plate around from where it should have been causing the starter motor to run in reverse. Of course when it does this, via the idler gear to the starter clutch, it is actually spinning the starter clutch in the direct it would normally go when the engine is running; i.e. in a reverse direction where the rollers do not bit into the clutch but spin freely. Once I fixed the brush plate the starter ran in the right direction and engaged the clutch.

Leave no stone unturned...so easy to rotate the brush plate. There is no notch to fit it in place but if you look at the diagram in the Haynes manual closely there is a particular "line-up" point. Not obvious but it is there.

Before going further just check that the starter motor is running in the right direction..Also, with the starter motor out you should be able to put your finger through the hole and turn the idler gear in one direction but not the other (from memory but I could be wrong). If this is the case the starter clutch is probably OK.

Keep us posted as this is one operation where there are a few posts on the site but no detailed step by step photos. I did the operation but neglected to document it.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Red:

I had posted this question thinking exactly the same thing as I had spun the idler noticing it only went in one direction. I do remember fiddling with the brush assly, not about rotating it, but wouldn't that be awesome if that were the issue!

Does anyone have a copy of the diagram showing the brush orientation?

Hope exists!

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Ok, my curiosity got the best of me, plus the Red Sox are in the 14th battleing Tampa Bay at 1-1 so put the radio on in the garage.

Pulled starter apart & checked the tab that aligns the brushes, can only go one way, besides that wouldn't make it spin backwards, it's still a plus/minus thing (polarity).

I did check the rotation of the starter before I put it in & it would spin the idler in the opp direction to engage the clutch!! What the heck??

The only way to reverse it would be to change the polarity & even though the cable from the start solinoid is black it is positively charged as the St mtr is grounded to the frame.

I don't think I could have assembled the end with the drive gear & two pinion gears wrong??

If anyone can tell me, does your starter motor spin clockwise as you look at it from the left side of the bike.

I'm tired & confused & the Sox just gave up a 3 run home in the top of the 14th.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

If you think 9 innings of baseball can be frustrating for your favourite team you should try Test Cricket in its 5 day form. Five minutes before the end of the final session on day 5 and the home team need 6 runs to win...and what happens...they score 5 runs, draw the game after batting and bowling 2 innings each after 5 days. Good grief, pass me a beer...

I'll get my Haynes manual and scan the image of the starter although you might find it on a Yamaha parts website - the exploded diagram, which I think is what the Haynes manual takes it from anyway.

Sounds more and more like the brushes may be only 90 degrees out of alignment which is causing it to rotate in the opposite direction...especially if you can spin the idler gear in one direction but not the other. I did what I thought were all the correct steps when I cleaned the starter motor and replaced the brushes - put it back on the bike and round and round it spun not engaging on anything. Worked like a charm...but not in the right direction.

The brush plate may have a tab but I recall that there are several tabs/indents.
Anyone got the link for the Yamaha parts website...you can find the exploded diagram for the starter motor and the starter clutch well reproduced.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

By the way, there should be only one way to reassemble the other end of the starter motor with the enclosed 2 orbital gears so no way should that be a factor in what may be happening.

I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.
I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.
I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Red:

I went into the garage & pulled the starter apart, looked to be assembled correctly as there was one tab bent down that was in a slot in the S Mtr case. I also compared it to the parts manual. Their is only one way the brush assy can go in from a front back direction as the wire is not long enough to flip it around.

Does anyone have a starter out of their bike they can jump start to see which direction it spins in. Same think if they have motor apart as for the idler gear.

Oh, by the way the Sox lost 4-2 in 14 innnings..............

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Last weekend I took my starter off, disassembled, cleaned the armature and the whole shibang for no reason other than I,m waiting on some parts and figured it needed it. I even bench tested it before reinstalling but didn't pay attention to the direction of spin.
If you don't get an answer by tonight I will pop it back off and confirm for you, it'll only take about a beer and 1/2 start to finish.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Capt:

Most appreciated.

Another question, if the starter is spinning in the right direction but the clutch dogs are bad can you see any of the internal gears behind the clutch pack spinning?

My starter spins really fast when in & it almost feels like I can get a vibration from the gen drive shaft if I hold onto it.

Sure seems like it's spinning backwards if the clockwise direction causes the idler gear to spin freely?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Okay I snuck home from work and pulled the starter off.
On the bench with the starter gear closest to me, mounting bolt holes and cable attachment away from the starter spins clockwise, this would spin the gear it engages in the case down. On my bike that gear pushed down would spin the engine and spun up is free-wheeling.
Hope this helps, I will leave the starter out if you want to confirm anything else.
On a side note the Reno Air Races are going on so we have the Thunderbirds screaming over once in awhile, pretty cool.
Good luck.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Woow, if my memory serves me correctly mine spins opposite, as in if you are looking at the starter when it is mounted it spins clockwise, that would be the opposite of what you are saying if I understand you correctly..

One more time:

If you are looking at the starter gear (the side that drive the engine it spins clockwise).

To be sure, you gounded the case, & ran + (hot) to the starter lead nut?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Yes ...case grounded, positive to nut, spins clockwise facing the gear, spins gear in case down.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Can't wait to get home to try this..

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I'm on the edge of my seat too! It sounds to me like it's something simple and you will be on the road once you put your finger on the problem. I would confirm the polarity of the battery with a meter. I knew a guy who actually trickle charged one backwards and after much hair pulling we found it acually read backwards with the meter. I know no one believes this, it seems as if someting catastrophic should have happened to the battery or the charger or both but I tell you it happened, Check your polarity. Always start with the simplest explanation.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I've done dummer things. I am actually running all my tests with a portable jumper power pack, had the same results with my known to be good auto battery.

Sounds like the polarity is switched. DC is funny that way.

I checked the wiring diagram & it shows the + (hot) to the solinoid & hot from there to the starter. It is weird that the cable the starter is black though..???

Could I have re-assembled the starter incorrectly?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I would check you battery polarity FIRST. If somehow your plus and minus are swapped you could have some electrical damage. TCI comes to mind maybe other devices....

I'm also not sure the motor will turn backwards even if hooked up in reverse. At least I have read that auto starters will not and I don't think they are much different in design. I would love to be proved wrong on this in your case because a simple fix would be great.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

You would have to reverse the brushes for it to run backwards (180 degrees) I think. I'm not sure that is possible with the cable length. I have had mine apart twice. There are locater slot in the plate the brushes mount to and tabs in the housing so you should be able to see if you have it in right. I don't think the starter goes back together properly if the plate is not seated correctly.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I can't remember what I did with the brush plate to make my starter go in the opposiitie direction but I did manage it - I do know that it was out of alignment and therefore had the effect of making it spin in the wrong direction.

Now, if I've done it correctly there should be an atachment that shows the exploded diagram of the starter...

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Interesting Red I'm not sure how you could that either but obviously you have proved it possible.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I didn't think about this before until seeing the diagram but now it occurs to me that if the orientation of the brushes is shifted around the axis then that would change the relationship with the permanent magnets in the housing, maybe it is as simple as realigning the brush plate with the correct tab.