Top end rebuild (Stuttering, Elec. Issues Prior) (Pic heavy)

Re: I need your brains

im 87% sure its the pickup coil(s). they'll seem ok on the bench, but at their resonant frequency, they'll act up. sorry man i hate throwing parts into stuff too, without solving the problem.
on the bright side, it'll run better than it did when it was brand new when you get it going right!

 

Re: I need your brains

Yep, gonna try the pickup coil next!

And that's the mentality I'm trying to keep: Once I nail this little issue, this bike should have no more issues for a goood long while lol.

 

Re: I need your brains

Check the grounds!

It's always the grounds!

I always go from the battery terminal to the starter and then ground EVERYTHING ELSE there too.
The cylinder head,
The voltage regulator,
Anything that has a sensor.

Anytime you have something weird blame the grounds first!

THEN check for bad connections.

+1 on the pickup coils mine were bad and I would have bet it was the carbs!

 

Re: I need your brains

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a pickup coil complete with rotor en route, and I'll check the grounds and connections in the meantime.

 

Re: I need your brains

Alright, a little update on this monstrosity.

I put the new pickup coil in, but now have to wait for a clutch cover gasket because it required the penny-in-the-primary-gear technique to get the pickup coil rotor bolt off...point being, can't test the pickup coil 'till Rebecca Blackday when the gasket procures itself on my doorstep.

My battery has been dying overnight. I charge it during the day, in the morning it's almost completely dead. This is while connected to a non-running bike. Yikes.

So yesterday, I took the fully charged battery with me to work. Checked it every hour, and it showed 12.8v all day. Ok, the battery is good. With the multimeter connected, I screw in the connectors on the bike into the battery, the multimeter immediately shows 11.3v. Just drops. There is something pulling electricity out of the battery even with the bike off. Then I start the bike, and even @ 5K RPM, the battery goes 11.3....(two seconds)...11.2....(two seconds)...11.1. You get the picture. Battery isn't charging! This is with a new stator and rectifier.

I removed the entire wiring harness -- the whole shabang. Checked and cleaned all the connectors, fuses, looked for heat trauma on the plastic and for any melted wires. Everything looked to be in good shape. Checked all the grounds, too. But I can't really test anything until the clutch cover gasket comes in.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

next time, just put it in 5th and hold the brake ; )
last night i found a short by just unplugging one connector at a time. you could try that...
or start w/ harness off (if it still is) and start plugging things in one at a time.
not charging, ugh, man... try old rectifier/regulator/coil?
did you start it w/o clutch cover? o_0
just a thought but my short was caused by (prob similar on the 600) uh... so you know that plastic thing that holds the rotor brushes? well one of the screws that holds that little assembly to the alternator cover rubbed through the shrink tubing on one of the brush's wire connectors. i wasnt getting any charge either...

did/does/will your battery drain when key is on LOCK?

dude your bike needs to stop being a rebellious teenager already and start acting its age. maybe its time for a good heart-to-heart.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

I tried to talk sense, but it's in that "I'm mad at my dad for no reason, going to smoke and get a tattoo" phase for sure

Was just about to update when you posted. Here is where it stands:

- Removing the wiring harness and cleaning it and checking it so very gently fixed the charging issue. There must have been a short/bad connection somewhere. WHEW.

- Test run with the new pickup coil. No change.

HOWEVER -_-

- #1 cylinder is getting no gas. I pull all the plugs and #2, #3, #4 are black, #1 is white. I think the #1 manifold or the vacuum tube is leaking air. Investigating. This could very well be the stuttering issue, however I'm not sure why I couldn't see these symptoms before.

At least a cylinder getting no gas is a visible issue I can sink my teeth into.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

OK

The stuttering turned out to be an air leak on cylinder #1 -- the vacuum hose from intake to petcoque was the suspect. Why I didn't catch this before, I don't know.

Now, no matter where I set the idle screws, all four plugs foul and are soot covered.

Unless, I take the airbox off. I even tried running with just the air filter out. Runs crummy. But only when I take the entire airbox off, the bike runs fine. Great actually.

So this tells me my fuel mixtures are wrong. Too much gas, not enough air. But no matter how I set the gas (floats, mixtures screws), it will not even ride 5 feet unless the airbox is removed.

About four times today I was ready to push this off a cliff and let it sleep with the fishes. I can't tell you how many times in the past two days I've taken the entire bike apart and put it back together.

I see the symptoms, but for some reason the fix eludes me.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Unless your air filter is plugged almost solid, it's doubtful that the air system is the problem.

Your fuel jets are too large (or reversed?), your air jets are too small (or reversed), the fuel levels are WAYY-Y-Y too high, the choke plungers are stuck "open" somehow, or the engine is so horribly out of synch that, sometime in the past, the engine has been "tuned" to only run at an incredibly rich condition, or someone has installed some kind of "hot rod" fuel system kit and messed up a whole number of things all at once.

But I would start, if possible (buy some new plugs), with trying to re-synch the engine. You'd be surprised how many issues that might resolve. If that doesn't solve the problem, then verify the choke system (and not just via the lever; make SURE the choke plungers are actually fully closed by hand and eye), and then pull the carbs and start looking at the jets and the tip of the choke plunger(s).

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Alright Chacal, I think you were on to something with the choke not closing correctly. There was little to no change in idling between half choke and no choke...that should tell me something right there.

It just so happens that I had a spare rack of carbs I bought a long time ago to use parts off of. I cleaned it up, moved all the parts from the old carb rack to the new one (bench sync, floats, yadda yadda), and sure enough it fired up like normal. The choke was operating like normal, too. Well that's that.

However, now I'm back to square one on the original issue. The bike rides for ten or so minutes, and the stuttering is back. I think it's safe to rule out the carbs as the cause, because I vacuum synced after that run and the stutter was still there -- with a different rack of carbs.

The bike ran great for the past year with stock parts/adjustments/sizes, so I know it isn't an issue where the bike has been modified and I'm incorrectly compensating. Everything is as it should be.

I have a feeling this issue is somewhere in the engine, because nothing I have done on the outside of the engine has had any effect on the stuttering. I've replaced everything on the bike with good used parts (including the carbs now). Well, except for the CDI box, but I doubt that has anything do do with it.

Plus, any time I've test ridden it in the past two weeks, there's a vibration and knocking noise that gets worse and worse every time. I think it might be time to pull the engine and do an overhaul, unfortunately.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

For what it's worth, the plug pull from today. I'll see if getting these gasolinearly balanced makes any difference.

IF I can get them balanced. Mr. Stutters might be preventing that. By the looks of these plugs, the air/fuel mixtures are changing too dynamically during riding.

1-2-3-4

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Andrewlong, given the exhaustive effort you have made to nail this down, I'm inclined to say that you might be suffering with a heat related issue. Ten minutes into a ride is time enough to heat up parts of the ignition system and start the heat cycle. You may be experiencing issue with your TCI, pickup-coils or ignition coils, even if they ohm out right. Do you have replacements for any of these? Forgive me but I've not kept up with your efforts closely nor have I read each post.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

No worries lol, this thread is hard to keep up with even if you read it from the beginning. The info is kind of all over the place.

I've already replaced the pickup coil and ignition coils with no change in performance. The CDI box is the last thing in the electrical realm to be diagnosed. I'm willing to try anything at this point before I do anything drastic to the motor.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

I wish I could offer assitance with your TCI but for your year all I can recommend is pop and swap. BTW, does the case of your TCI appear to have a cover or is it sealed like the '85 and up typically are?

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

It's the very sealed resin-filled type.

Someone might be sending me a good used one in the next couple days.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Alright, help me out here so I can cancel my admittance to the crazy house.

According to my hasn't-failed-me-yet manual, the alignment dot on the camshaft is supposed to be centered in this annoyingly small viewing window:



...when #1 cylinder is at TDC....? Wait, that's not TDC.



Am I missing something, or did my cams decide they didn't want to be lined up anymore?

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

The Timing Mark on the Rotor needs to be moved a few degrees Clockwise to line-on with the Mark at the Center of the Pickup

The Line you have the "- T -" ... centered-up on is a cover seam.

Your off a few degrees.
Pull the Number-1 Plug and shine a light in there.
Eyeball the Piston at TOP
Make any correction at the Rotor

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

The bottom picture in the previous post of mine is where the rotor TDC mark ends up when both cams are in TDC alignment. But you answered my question that the timing adjustment is off. I'll double check by eyeballing the #1 cylinder.

Now you say make any correction at the rotor, but the rotor has a pin (in the below picture) to where it cannot be adjusted.

If that's the case, I suppose the only way to adjust the timing is to take the cam chain off, align everything, and put the cam chain back on?






EDIT: I just checked the #1 cylinder by putting a small wood dowel in the plug hole, and it's at the top when the rotor mark is at TDC with the pickup coil sensor. However, the cams are off a little.

When I line up the cams to TDC again, the mark on the rotor is off by the same amount as the above picture.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Number-1 at TDC
(The Rotor should be on the Mark)

Lock the Crank from turning.
(Assistant)

Position the EX-Cam with the Dot in the Bullseye
(Use wrench on flats on the Cam)
Pull the Slack up from the Front to the Cam.
Adjust the Chain on the Sprocket's teeth to line-up Sprocket to Holes on Cam
Get a Bolt in with the:
Slack out
Rotor at TDC
Cam Dot in Bullseye
Move everything back or forth to do other Bolts.
Return to TDC w/ Ex cam Dot in Bullseye.

Do the Intake Cam
Same drill
Pull the Chain tight from the Ex Cam
Get the Intke Cam Bulllseye'd
Affix Sprocket

Install Tensioner and release Pawl

Turn-over Engine BY HAND
2 Complete Revolutions
Stop Rotor at TDC
Ck Bullseyes
Yes: Good
No: Do over.

 

Re: I need your brains (Stuttering, Elec. Issues)

Tried three or four times and I just can't get everything lined up.

When the crank and both cams are at TDC, the cam chain doesn't want to go on -- it's kind of mid-tooth. I have to move the cams back just a little to get the cam chain seated. After the tensioner and two rotations by hand, the mark on the pickup coil plate always ends up in the same spot, a couple degrees off.

I might be doing something wrong. Gonna try again.