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Weird electrical- please help identify problem?

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Trevanion, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. Trevanion

    Trevanion Member

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    81 XJ750 SECA.

    (Not what it looks like, I know, but I promise.)

    End of last season I noticed the battery had died. Cleaning her up for spring, and here's what I'm getting:

    Left signal is on, steady not blinking, all the time. Full off, key out, battery removed. (just kidding on that last one.)

    Entire dash seems linked to signal switch. With the key off, if I turn on the right signal, the whole dash lights up, full accessory. Push signal to left, dash shuts off except left signal, which stays steady.

    This is above my pay grade. I can track down a simple bad circuit, and I've even rebuilt a few ignition switches, but I honestly don't even know where to start.

    Anybody else ever run into this craziness, or have an educated guess on where to begin? Should I tear down the ignition switch? Replace the signal switch? A perfunctory glance at the wires didn't show anything weird, but I didn't dig into the harness. If you think this is a crossed wire, any guess as to where that might be to get these symptoms?

    It's got aftermarket LED signals. Can't imagine why that would matter, but there it is.

     
  2. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    led lights could be the problem as the stock flasher will not work with leds unless you put load resistors in the circuit.
    there is a thread on leds and having everything work.

    Clean and lube the ignition switch

    start with the ignition switch nothing should come on when key is off
     
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  3. Colin 85 700

    Colin 85 700 Active Member

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    The LEDs can cause wierd elecrtical backfeeds because they are also a diode, know a few people had issues with em effing up electrical if you bugger the polarity, pos neg, i stay away from em personally.
     
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  4. Colin 85 700

    Colin 85 700 Active Member

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    To add, a backwards led can esentially cause a backwards short, no ground, grounds to pos. Backfeeds idfk, i kept stock!
     
  5. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Key-off/key-out should result in no blinkers at all. Ingition switch may need replaced or cleaned/rebuilt.
    It's also possible that a PO did some creative wiring.

    LED signal lights won't cause any trouble if the correct relay is used, and the self-canceling feature can be retained when a two-relay setup is utilized.

    How to convert to LED's and still have everything work
     
  6. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    No it can't. The only issue with installing a LED lamp backwards is that it won't light up. You won't get backfeed, beause in the configuration the LED is acting like a switch that has been turned off.
    I think you're talking about using one in a shared lamp system (like the single dash turn signal indicator on the 650), which relies on backfeed to function with the stock incandescent lamps. In that case you need to add steering diodes to prevent the backfeed so the indicator lamp will work and not cause all of the turn signals to come on at once.
     
  7. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    any speedo with a shared blinker indicator needs a bidirectional diode LED as its ground is through the unused blinker bulb.
    with the 2 indicator styles you have to make sure the led is in in the correct direction or use bi directional leds as that style the indicator bulb does have a true ground.
     
  8. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    I was referencing what needs to be done when retaining the single incandescent dash bulb if you switch to LED indicators.
     
  9. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    If you have the stock lights I would return it to OEM and then go one light at a time. By replacing one at a time and then see if the problem returns. If it does, you should be able to trouble shoot why the one LED light is making this issue happen. I think you will find that there is a shared power issue and the LED is causing the issue. As k-moe and others above have states, might have to do a little more modding if you want to add all LEDs. Good luck.
     
  10. jayrodoh

    jayrodoh YimYam Premium Member

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    Is just the left indicator on or the actual signals too? Since the left blinker is on all the time, I would look into wiring for those if modified, otherwise start looking for a short between the left signal wires and positive. The bulb is getting power somewhere all the time, by turning the left blinker switch on with the ignition off you are feeding 12 back into the circuit which is causing the dash etc. to light back up. I would look at the LED flasher as well, although you would think you'd have the problem on both sides if there was an issue, be good to make sure it is wired in right.
     
  11. Ryengoth

    Ryengoth Active Member

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    Hmm, does this model have an electrical signal cancellor or mechanical? Sounds a lot like a relay + cancellor stuck state.
     
  12. Trevanion

    Trevanion Member

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    I got the bike with LEDs and it worked fine for two years, but I have a parts bike w/stock blinkers and will happily try this if it still seems like a good approach. (Replacing blinkers is solidly within my limited technical skills.)

    You still think this is a good starting point even if the LEDs were previously working fine?
     
  13. Trevanion

    Trevanion Member

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    I believe both? The signal goes off after a period of time on its own, or you can poke the switch and it goes off. Is this what you’re referring to?

    Any tips on where that potentially faulty relay might be located?

    Thanks!
     
  14. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Electronic. If the self-cancel were the problem then the same condition would exist with tungsten bulbs (which is a good test of the self-canceler when any modifications are made).


    OP,
    The self-canceling unit is under the fuel tank and looks like a very long relay. Unplugging it removes it from the system and reverts it to a normal push-to-cancel system.
     
  15. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Will the bike crank with the key off in any of those conditions you posted in the video? If it won't crank then:

    The flasher relay is normally accessible under the tank - the pic is the stock one but if you have and aftermarket it should be a similar 2 or 3 prong device connected to a black connector. The self cancelling unit is under the tank and can be disconnected and the flashers should still work.

    upload_2019-4-9_18-49-22.png
     
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  16. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    If the stock flasher is still being used (likely since a lot of people just install resistors to load the system for LEDs. A sloppy solution IMO, but a popular one) the problem very well could be internal to the flasher. It is not a sealed unit, and corrosion can form causing the contacts to stick. The cover can be popped off and the contacts cleaned with a points file or emery board.
     
  17. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    if led relay try to adjust the flash rate move adjuster full each way .

    could be your led system is wired directly to battery.



    voltage through the indicator bulb may be feeding the display
    if you pull the signals fuse do you still get same results?
    test for voltage on input side of signal fuse with key off and at the other fuses.

    the main fuse is the only fuse that should have power with key off.

    when you pull fuses it may isolate the issue to a circuit

    also it may be time to remove the controller to check its wiring. relay feeds control then control switch directs power to signals

    may want to unplug your battery level circuit at the battery
     
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  18. Trevanion

    Trevanion Member

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    Thanks a lot for all the helpful responses!

    Tore down and cleaned/polished both ignition and signal switches. Both seemed good.

    Only power to main fuse with key off, all other fuses dead as they should be.

    Replaced or disconnected all signals, so no LEDs currently plugged into bike.

    Symptoms remain, even with auto cancel assembly and flasher relay disconnected.

    Weird dash light flashing thing happeneing now, see video.

    At this point does it have to be a hot wire making contact with a turn signal wire, or related?

     
  19. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    that yellow wire goes to canceler unit. tape it off
    that wire you poke is brown/white and is the power output side of your flasher relay did you resolder that wire
    wires to relay with key off there should be no power to those wires color should be brown and brown/white

    brown should be power input to relay wire

    with key off check the wires voltage from key red is always hot brown is output to fuse box and should only have power when key is on.
    blue wire goes to the tail lights/plate light should only have power when key is on.

    if key is off and you get power to brown or blue wire your ignition switch is suspect


    do you have your battery charger set to 6 amps?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  20. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    I would start to take all the connections apart and clean them. See if there is a bad ground or power bleeding over that should not be. Guess broken wire or connector that might be the issue. You can use a jumper wire from the + bat side and start to test out each leg of the turn signals. - bat to the frame of the bike on a good clean ground point. The battery being supper low could be a issue as well. Get a good charge on that battery and then start to trouble shoot.

    You don't see any damage to the wiring harness on the bike? Look around the tank and seat area to see if a wire got the insulation rubbed off it along the backbone of the bike frame?

    Great vid to show us the issue. Lots of people will be helping, keep up the great work and posting.
     

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